The In Suffering Triumphant Servant of the LORD
Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn
Thomas Watson:
I think I hear Him say to us,
'Reach out your hands.
Put them into My side.
Feel my bleeding heart.
See if I do not love you.
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/isaiah-52-53.28651/#1
C. H. Spurgeon:
“From every text in the Bible there is a road to Jesus Christ.”
GE:
Servant of the LORD
(Matthew 26:57-68; Mark 14:53-65; John 18:19-24; 1 Peter 2:21-25)
The road from Isaiah 52:8, “…when the LORD shall bring again Zion”, the road to Jesus Christ is the waste places of Jerusalem on Zion, on the Passover of Yahweh from Egypt through Babylon... the road to Jesus Christ from the Table to the Tree, on the fourteenth day of the First Month when they killed the Passover of Yahweh.
The road from Isaiah 52:9, “…Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem”, the road to Jesus Christ, is the People of the LORD “comforted”, is, Jerusalem “redeemed”. “Thou stretched out Thy Right Hand .. Thou in Thy Mercy hast led forth the people, the people Thou hast redeemed, whom Thou hast guided in Thy Strength unto The Holy Habitation .. till the people pass over, O Lord, till the people pass over which Thou hast purchased. Thou shalt bring them in and plant them in the mountain of Thine Inheritance, The Place Thou hast made for Thee to dwell in, The Sanctuary, O Lord, thy hands have established. The LORD shall reign for ever and ever. .. Sing ye to the LORD, for He hath triumphed gloriously…” the road to Christ "on the sixteenth day of .. the First Month the Passover of Yahweh for you.”
101G:
Addressing the OP. yes, Jesus the Christ is the Comfort, or "Comforter" to all people. yes, all roads leads to JESUS. Luke 2:25 "And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him" the "consolation", or the comfort of God People, Jews abd Gentiles.
Isaiah 40:1 "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2
"Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins. 3 "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 "Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 "And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it".
GE:
Amen, <the comfort of God's People, Jews and Gentiles>-- Jerusalem, God’s Church, is Jesus Christ the Way of the LORD which He prepared through the desert and every rough place and valley. For He, "hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all, her, sins"--the sins of Jerusalem, our sins. "Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare, is accomplished: by Jesus Christ, that her iniquity is pardoned, in Jesus Christ, for He hath received of the LORD'S Hand, double for all her, sins."
“From every text in the Bible there is a road to Jesus Christ.” And that Way, is Jesus Christ Suffering the Passover from the Hand of Yahweh. Jesus Christ suffered God’s anguish and received of the Lord’s sorrow, double for <the comfort of God's People, Jews and Gentiles>.
“From every text in the Bible there is a road to Jesus Christ.”
From Isaiah 52:10, “The LORD hath made bare His Holy Arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see The Salvation of our God.”
“From every text in the Bible there is a road to Jesus Christ.” From Isaiah 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.
“From every text in the Bible there is a road to Jesus Christ.” From Isaiah 52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your reward.
The Servant Exalted (Philippians 2:5-11; 13Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. 14As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Isaiah 53: 1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted (of God). 5But he was wounded (of God) for our transgressions, he was bruised (of God) for our iniquities: the chastisement (of God) of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes (of God Proverbs 20:30) we are healed. (1Peter 2:14) 6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7He was oppressed and he was afflicted (of the LORD), yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as .. Lamb (of God Leviticus 23:12 John 1:29,36 Genesis 22:8) to the slaughter, and as a sheep (Exodus 12:3) before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8He was taken from prison (grave) and from judgment (death): and who shall declare his generation? (Leviticus 16:10) for he was cut off (reap Leviticus 23:10,22) out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken (of God) with plague. A Grave Assigned (Matthew 27:57-61; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42) 9And because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth, he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. 10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and of the travail of his soul shall he be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. |
https://www.facebook.com/christiaan.ebersohn/posts/10206216441166219
101G:
the jews and the romans (gentiles) was just instruments of the Spirit, God, to bring about his will in the suffering of Christ, and his Natural death.
GE:
The Jews and the Romans (gentiles) were indeed just instruments of the Spirit, God, to bring about his will in the suffering of Christ, and his death. Verily THEREFORE, Jesus' death was no <Natural death> but "God gave his Son" and God's Son "offered Himself, Sacrifice" "for the sins of many".
This Saving Truth, Christ's Suffering of the Passover Suffering of Yahweh that brought about God's Eternal Will, Council and Purpose concerning his Elect CAME FROM THE HEART OF GOD and men were <just instruments of the Spirit, God, to bring (it) about>.
Isaiah 52: 1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: He hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a Man--of sorrows, (The Man) acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from Him; He was despised (by us), and we esteemed Him not. 4 Surely He, hath borne our griefs, and He, carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him, stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted (of God). 6 But He was wounded (of God) for our transgressions, He was bruised (of God) for our iniquities: the chastisement (of God) of our peace was upon Him; and with his stripes (of God Proverbs 20:30) we are healed. (1Peter 2:14)
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted (of the LORD), yet He opened not his mouth: He is brought as .. Lamb (of God Leviticus 23:12 John 1:29,36 Genesis 22:8) to the slaughter, and as a sheep (Exodus 12:3) before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison (was resurrected from the grave by God) and from judgement (Suffering dying the death of death AS GOD): WHO shall declare his generation (resurrection BUT GOD)? (Leviticus 16:10) For He was cut off (reaped Leviticus 23:10,22) out of the land of the living (by God): for the transgression of my people was He stricken (of God) with plague. 9 And because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth, He (God) made his grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He (the LORD) hath put Him to grief: When Thou (LORD) shalt make his soul an offering for sin, He shall see his seed, He shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand" according to measure the LORD bruised and chastised Him. 11 He (the LORD) shall see of the travail of his (Jesus') soul, and of the travail of his (Jesus') soul shall He (the LORD) be satisfied: by his knowledge shall My Righteous Servant (Christ) justify many; for He, shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I (the LORD GOD) divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the Strong (the Almighty); because He, hath poured out his soul unto death: and He was numbered with the transgressors (by God); and He (Jesus Christ) bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the trans-gressors. Jesus suffered; God let Jesus suffer at His Almighty Right Hand. "Man can do Me nothing." Ps 56:4,11; 118:6 Jn 19:10,11.
Apr 28, 2019#7 If ever from a “text in the Bible there is a road to Jesus Christ”, it is Isaiah 52, 53, and "Man can do Me nothing." Psalm 56:4,11; 118:6 John 19:10,11.
gadar perets:
Then I confess my sin and ask for forgiveness through Yeshua's shed blood. Then I endeavor to not commit the same sin again (repentance.
GE:
Tell me where in the Gospels you found Jesus' 'shed blood'...
WMC:
Matthew 26:28 ,for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins
Romans 5:9 ,Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Hebrews 10:19-22 ,let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
GE:
Re:
'~Matthew 26:28 ,for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins~'.
Jesus speaks of the wine and calls the wine "My blood of the covenant, which is poured out". He obviously spoke figuratively, not literally. Or else his blood had to be scooped up from events the next day and served for the Last Supper the night before it somehow. Neither words "blood" and "poured out / shed" indicate Jesus' blood physically (literally) poured out. That is why it literally is written in both OT and NT "He poured out his SOUL"! Because with animal sacrifices "the life is in the blood"; but with the "Sacrifice of Himself", his 'blood' was "poured out" in, and as, "He poured out his SOUL". NO drop of physical blood of Jesus the Christ was spilt. The claim is Roman Catholic bloody idolatry.
Re: '~Romans 5:9 ,Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.~'
Yes, we have "NOW been justified by His blood" as every saved sinner ever has been and ever shall be saved. Again, Paul's is figurative speech; no literal meaning attached. He did not write, "blood SHED" literally, or whatsoever meant "blood SHED" physically. The abomination! "We shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him"--, through "HIM" the whole Christ whose "flesh (and blood that was and still is his "flesh" "in" which He "came" from death and from the "suffering" of his dying death--, whose "flesh saw NO CORRUPTION", yea, not so much as one drop of blood shod.
Re: '~Hebrews 10:19-22, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh~'
A "heart sprinkled clean from an evil conscience with water" is as physically true as is us "enter(ing) the (literal) holy place (literally in heaven) by the (physical) blood of Jesus". But again the "new and living way for us to enter through the veil IS JESUS through his flesh" BY FAITH of course, NOT meant literally, clearly! As one person claimed, by Jesus' "flesh" because He drained out his blood completely and rose from the dead with a bloodless body! At least this person was consistent and not so overtly false as the Roman Catholics who preach an endlessly 'bleeding Jesus'.
WMC:
You clearly have a fantastic faith, to believe that Jesus's physical death did not involve him bleeding. Every reference referrs to Jesus either going to or having 'shed' his blood.
May 02, 2018 • 237 posts • 3304 views
GE:
Supply one reference you cannot
Nomad:
Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already
dead, they did not break his legs.
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.
Aspen:
Blood and water seperate after death
GE:
"He was already dead."
And not 'blood came out', but "blood-and-water" wherein was, nor is, any Life for anyone.
"For these things happened / were done that the Scriptures should be fulfilled, A bone of Him shall NOT be broken, because again another Scripture says (the same thing): They shall look to Him whom they, pierced", but when alive could not do any harm to, although He passed through the valley of death.
Jesus’ side was pierced because and as God, foretold it! The "blood-and-water" which "came out" was not blood which Jesus, poured out pouring out his soul, alive, willing, and obediently "desiring to do Thy Will, o God!" It was "blood-and-water" not of Salvation, but "blood-and-water" that witnessed to and foretold the future day of Judgement and the everlasting punishment for all the wicked (and not for just "one of the soldiers" who actually pierced Jesus' side).
HR:
Jesus fulfilled the law for us. That is His shed blood was the price paid for sins just as the sacrificial lamb's blood was a picture of what Jesus would do.
GE:
Jesus fulfilled the law for us. Which means He did what the Law was
unable to do for us. Jesus' poured out SOUL was the price paid for sins, NOT as the sacrificial lamb's blood metaphorically was a picture of what Jesus would do.
The life of the blood sacrifices was shed in their blood being shed; but Jesus' blood was shed in his soul, his Life, being poured out.
Nomad:
Sorry, the text clearly says that blood issued from the wound that the Roman soldier inflicted. Jesus could and did bleed, your irrational protests notwithstanding.
GE:
Sorry, the text clearly does not say that '~blood issued from the wound~; it says "blood-and-water", "precisely / frankly / plainly ['euthus'] blood-and-water came out". The text does not even say 'from the (inflicted) wound', but just, "blood-and-water came out", "came out", by itself.
Jesus did not, actively, 'bleed', or He must have been still alive so that it was not the soldier's spear which caused the "blood-and-water" to "come out", your irrational protests notwithstanding.
Nomad:
So blood + water = no blood? Good luck with that. You're really going off the rails here. Apr 26, 2018#14 The text contradicts you. Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.
GE:
The text does not contradict me, it contradicts you.
GE:
John 19:34 “blood and water” ≠ blood ≠ water ≠ ‘blood + water’ ≠ ‘water + blood’ but is a one of two substances two in one, of a single protrusion, dead, thing of no saving value.
Why? because there was no life or soul in it and did not come about by the will or act of God, but by the will and act of desperately lost man.
The piercing was done by the predetermination of God, but the flowing was due to gravity, and the fluids due to death.
That is not what desperately lost sinner puts all his trust in. And why would he but that God from eternity willed it to his own glory in the face of Jesus, even the while God had made Him to be sin and made Him into the likeness of sin, like that old snake brought to the curse of sin in the Seed’s dying the death of death on the tree. "The Seed of the woman shall crush thy head though thou shalt bruise His heel", the heel of The In Suffering Triumphant Servant of the LORD.
Supply one reference of the living Jesus, bleeding, you cannot, because every reference to man's attempts to get the Christ of God bleeding like mortal sinners must at such physical violence prove maddening frustration, anger, and further VAIN ATTEMPT. While each moment the Lamb of God "made a show of them openly He TRIUMPHED over them in it" HIS SUFFERING IN SOUL AND FLESH.
Like Israel of old passed through the Red Sea on dry land Our Passover passed through "THIS THOU HAST PREPARED FOR ME BEHIND THE VEIL", "the veil" of his sinless and therefore immutable human "flesh", God being The Faithful who would not let Him suffer like the guilty, but conquer like the LORD Almighty in dying the death of death of the last enemy. "Because He sinned not and was not guilty" (Leviticus 6:30) He was ABLE to "restore" that which they (US) "violently" tried to "take away" -- HIS VERY LIFE, and to destroy -- HIS VERY SOUL, the thing which they (US) "deceitfully have gotten" but He was ABLE to "deliver : that which was delivered to Him to KEEP" -- his SOUL AND LIFE, FLESH AND BLOOD AND BONES, WHOLE. "That Day was The Whole Day BONE-DAY" of the Passover of Yahweh!
HR:
Jesus fulfilled the law for us. That is His shed blood was the price paid for sins just as the sacrificial lamb's blood was a picture of what Jesus would do.
GE:
Yes, Jesus fulfilled the law for us. Which means He did what the Law was unable to do for us. Jesus' poured out SOUL was the price paid for sins, NOT as the sacrificial lamb's blood metaphorically was a picture of what Jesus would do.
The life of the blood sacrifices was shed in their blood being shed; but
Jesus' blood was shed in his soul, his Life, being poured out.
HR:
Have you not read where it says "that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin."
Heb 9:21-28 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. 23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another — 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
HR:
Have you not read where it says "that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin."
Apr 26, 2018#10
GE:
Don't you read that that was according to the previous dispensation or former sacrificial "ministry" and is saying nothing about Christ's Ministration of Himself the Priest, Himself the Sacrifice, Himself the Altar, who "poured out his soul" Himself, Himself the "I AM the Resurrection and the Life"?
Nomad:
The evidence just keeps mounting against your strange pet doctrine.
Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
GE:
"He entered once for all into the most holy (temple of his Resurrected Life "in the flesh" as John says) NOT, by means of the blood of goats and calves, BUT, by means / with / because of ['dia'] his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption"--, "by means / with / because of his own blood"--, not without it! Like Christ without any bone of his broken or severed secured eternal redemption, secured He eternal redemption with any blood severed or 'bled out'.
Christ substantially rose from the dead as substantially He descended into death. “THIS SAME Jesus whom ye crucified God raised Christ and Lord!”
Nomad said: ↑
So blood + water = no blood? Good luck with that. You're really going off the rails here.
GE:
Though "blood-and-water" is one thing which "came out" Singular 'eksehlthen', it is not '~no blood~' but the "blood-and-water" as written thing. Your '~blood + water =~' of course = two things; unlucky for you, no two as written things though.
The "blood-and-water" was lifeless: without the Water-of-Life the Soul of Jesus IN and WITH it, but was dead "blood-and-water" whereby, or wherein or wherewith it is impossible any can be redeemed or saved; it was not "the blood of Jesus": "according to the Scriptures": "poured out": in or with or AS: "his Soul poured out".
GE:
Yes. John 19:34 “blood and water” ≠ blood ≠ water ≠ ‘blood + water’ ≠ ‘water + blood’ but is a one of two substances two in one, of a single protrusion, dead, thing of no saving value EXCEPT ITS PROPHETIC FULFILMENT by Jesus with his life and sacrifice of his life and resurrection of his life.
Why? because there was no life or soul in the “water-and-blood” protrusion and although God predestined it, the will and act of desperately lost man were the will and act of desperately lost man and mankind.
The piercing was done by the predetermination of God, but the flowing was due to gravity, and the fluids due to death.
That is not what desperately lost sinner puts all his trust in. And why would he but that God from eternity willed it to his own glory in the face of Jesus,
even the while God had made Him to be sin and made Him into the likeness of sin, like that old snake brought to the curse of sin in the Seed’s dying the death of death on the tree. "The Seed of the woman shall crush thy head though thou shalt bruise His heel", the heel of The In Suffering Triumphant Servant of the LORD.
Nomad:
You have officially come unhinged. That's what happens when you attempt to defend the indefensible.
GE:
Thanks. It's stored and saved, and publicly shared, your official defence.
Therefore the coming Lord's Supper for me, I'll eat bread and drink wine, not 'wine-and-water' mixed and given believers as BLOOD to drink for the WINE of the Lord’s Supper. So the day wine and water will be one and the same thing as wine, I will reconsider your Roman Catholic teaching there came forth not one and the same thing, "blood-and-water".
HR:
Please show where it says Jesus shed out His soul.
DPM:
folks; by these postings and others, GerhardEbersoehn is clearly anti-Christ and tells us he is Christian. therefore he's a liar from the get-go. why entertain his attempts to deceive. surly a believer need no knowledge on how not to believe. nor does he come here to learn what to believe.
LF:
The pierce wound aside, Jesus still bled even when nails were put through his hands and feet, and the crown of thorns stuck on his head. And also the flogging, would have caused stripes.
It would be unusual had he not bled, and that would be noted in the gospels.
GE:
You are aware of the plain truth it is not written Jesus bled when nails were put through his hands and feet; and the reason is obvious, it is written, "these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled". The LORD GOD PREPARED Jesus' body for the nails and spear driven into it and PRESERVED it that "his flesh should and did NOT see corruption or damage". The Scriptures are lying or the Church is lying.
Why do you think did they put the crown of thorns and stuck on his head hit it with a stick? Because they were DESPERATE TO GET BLOOD, to get Jesus' FLESH to corrupt and bleed from wounds they thought THEY could inflict, but was proven incapable of inflicting, every time because GOD said these things had to happen, not because man caused it to happen; and because Jesus was the Lamb without blemish of the Almighty who justly EARNED immortality and incorruptibility; because Jesus was the second Adam who did not obey the snake and TRIUMPHED where the first Adam failed and had to corrupt and die the death and corruption the reward for sin.
'~And also the flogging, would have caused stripes.~' Yes, that's what everyone thought, and still think --still JUDGE that that's what should have happened but God predetermined otherwise. So they all got and still get MAD AT GOD and tried even harder to make Jesus' flesh AT MAN'S ATTEMPT AND TO MAN'S DESIRE, corrupt to death.
For certain therefore, most unusual fact of Jesus' Divinity and sinless Humanness is that He did not bleed, or it would be noted in the Gospels that He did, but is not.
BB:
yet as was pointed out you have a curious lack of actual blood, only descriptions of its power, etc. as for the stuff above, they are symbolic, and the real explanations are spiritual, and even "duh" obvious believe it or not
BOL:
GerhardEbersoehn said: ↑Tell me where in the Gospels you found Jesus' 'shed blood'... HOGWASH. Jesus's Passion began at the Last Supper. AFTER supper, he went to the Garden of Gethsemane to pray - and THIS is what it says:
Luke 22:44
“And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.”
The next day, Jesus was taken to the pillar ans scourged.
Isaiah 53:5
“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his STRIPES we are healed.”
"Stripes" refers to the bleeding caused by the whipping.
The Bible says that He shed blood when pierced through the side (John 19:34).
YOU can whine all you want about "water and blood" not referring to actual bleeding - but it just shows how far a person will go to advance a perverse agenda like yours.
GE:
Re: '~THIS is what it says: Luke 22:44 “And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.”~'
With another colouring-in, the text looks like this, "And being in anguish, He prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.” "Sweat" fell and "sweat" was "drops"; not "blood".
In any case, this was not caused by man but by Jesus himself, He having "been in anguish" -- "in anguish" of SOUL -- of HIS soul.
BOL:
Uh huh - because of our SIN -- OUR sin.
GOD (Jesus) bled because of OUR SIN.
GE:
Wrong; He did not, bleed. That's my point! He "poured out his SOUL". That is quoted, from Scripture. I believe Scripture; not you or the church or the anti-Christ RCC. I'm a Protestant. I have my 'rights'; my 'rights' are the plain written Word of God in the Scriptures.
BOL:
And you're a good little Protestant at that. The true spirit of Protestantism has ALWAYS been division and invented doctrine. However, I'm not sure that you even qualify as a Protestant.
By saying that Jesus didn't bleed when He was scourged, nailed to a cross and pierced through the heart with a spear indicates that YOU don't believe that He was a man. This is heresy, plain and simple. This belief would make you a quasi-Christian - not a real Christian. Other quasi-Christian sects include Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, Onenes Pentecostals, Christadelphians and the like.
Many other heresies before yours have made the same blunder - the Docetists, for one. Virtually EVERY heresy begins with the misconception of the nature of God.
GE:
BreadOfLife:
The next day, Jesus was taken to the pillar ans scourged.
Isaiah 53:5 “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his STRIPES we are healed.”
"Stripes" refers to the bleeding caused by the whipping.
GE:
Fine, made a note of, '~"Stripes" refers to BLOOD . . .~' not to "stripes". To ‘blood’, where?
BOL:
What are "stripes" on a body that has been scourged with a Roman flagrum??
BB:
well notice you had to add that part, right
LF:
John 19:1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.
BOL:
Absolutely. A Roman flagrum was fashioned with pieces of metal on the ends of the lashes so they they would rip into the flesh causing bleeding.
GE:
"Stripes" refers to "Stripes", not to bleeding caused however by whatever; no bleeding was caused. Before the whipping started, they changed Jesus' apparel for something they put on, whipped Him and afterwards put on his own clothes again, FOR WHAT? Because the clothing they scourged Him in had no blood on to show for their effort. Obvious; but if you will not understand you will not understand.
Why did they have to hit the crown of thorns with a stick? Because they CRAVED HIS BLOOD but got none.
Why you think Pilate asked Jesus if He was some divine being? Because Jesus' "flesh saw no corruption" by any means imaginable! This Man was like a lamb slaughtered, He did not make a sound; this Man was like a god—was God in fact, He did not shed a piece of skin nor a drop of blood! THIS MAN AS BLOOD OF A GOD no eye of
man could see POURED OUT HIS SOUL even the blind could see!
LF:
And what is that agenda, because a teaching that denies Jesus shed his blood sounds like a snare trap from the pits of hell.
GE:
A teaching that denies Jesus' blood shed his "soul" being "poured out", must needs make of Him an animal sacrificed for the life and soul of it "in the blood" -- the very snare trap from the pit of hell of the Roman priests and bishops and popes which as a matter of fact has trapped countless souls of many centuries and today more than ever before.
BB:
GerhardEbersoehn said: ↑ BY FAITH of course, NOT meant literally, clearly! this is the first time i have paid attention to this "blood" avenue, i think someone tried to expound on it a couple years ago to me but i wasn't ready...and fwiw there is more ammo in this gun, too, but i guess enough has been said already. It's apparently just something that quite a few people are confronted with at some point in their studies, i dunno about you but i certainly wasn't looking for this, it just keeps coming up, from various angles.
Amadeus:
Seemingly what was shed on us that made the difference was the Holy Ghost: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;" Titus 3:5-6
GE:
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy, He saved us by the(=his) washing-of-Regeneration and-being-Raised-up-again of (=by) the Holy Ghost which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour"...
Note what He, Christ, "shed"--"his (the) washing-of-Regeneration-
and-Rising-up-again", his Resurrection-- his Resurrection-LIFE; his "Revived" SOUL! Jesus shed his soul; he "shed" his blood "shedding, pouring out" his Life's Soul, in BOTH DYING AND RISING.
Aspen:
…His blood flowed out of His body, along with water after the spear
was inserted, testifying to his real death; His tomb was empty on the third day....
Is this the end result of denying the Real Presence of the Eucharist?
Yikes! Without the pouring out of blood we are dead in our sins!
The OP sounds like Gnosticism run rampant.....
GE:
Your post sounds like Roman Catholicism run rampant. All the OP
asks for is Scripture; not RC teachings of men. So my Protestant prayer is this thread to be the beginning of the end of the abomination of '~the Real Presence of the Eucharist~'. jigggg
Amadeus:
What was the Life blood which was poured out on all flesh?
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit." Joel 2:28-29
Consider that with what Paul wrote here: "[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6
Consider again what is reality and what is simply symbolic or types and shadows.
Aspen:
Wow.... Wow! This is one crazy thread.....I just found it.
This just makes it so real for me; why the gospel writers and early church emphasized the bodily reserrection of Jesus and the account of doubting Thomas (god bless his testimony). Jesus was a real person; He lived and died on a Cross; His blood flowed out of His body, along with water after the spear was inserted, testifying to his real death...
BB:
yet you had to fix that to make it sound like you want it to, see; you cannot Quote that.
"Water and blood" issuing forth should invoke other...situations, that you might compare.
"Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather."
Lforrest:
The animal sacifice and purification rituals with it point to Christ. Though they didn't know it at the time. Jesus fulfilled the law by his sacrifice. The wolfs would like us to stray from the shepherd's reach.
Aspen:
I question that idea that the animal skin clothing was a foreshadowing of Christ...... Seems to me that God was simply giving A&E what they wanted - it was their best plan for covering up their vulnerability. Psalm 51 talks about how God doesn’t want sacrifices - He wants a clean heart, which can only be provided by Jesus.
Animal sacrifice appears to be our attempt to appease God - more about ego than purification. Yes, it was accepted for a time, but the only sacrifice that actually purified us is Jesus.
LF:
Animal skins point to a sacrifice, through he doesn't draw attention to it. The purpose of which was to cover up their nakedness. It was a caring gesture on behalf of God. Most commentators agree it has something to do with Jesus.
GE:
That is true. Think of the tabernacle in the wilderness. It was made of the skins of sacrifices and if someone took the life of another, he could find refuge under or inside the cover of skins of sacrifices and hold fast onto the horns of the altar as were it the object or person whom he assaulted and killed.
I believe one may also think about the tabernacle or tent of mercy of the skins of sacrifices while looking at Jesus the Word of God who "tabernacled" among men in view of Him sacrificed for our sins.
And then, the tabernacle in the "wilderness", the same meaning of the word 'Eden', I understand.
Aspen:
I agree that the clothing was a bandaid for humanity after the Fall. Ego covers wounds, but Christ heals. I guess the clothing in the garden foreshadowed the need for healing - if that is what is meant by foreshadowing Christ, I agree
LF:
The blood of Jesus is orthodox, the teaching that it was not shed is unorthodox.
BB:
I checked back to see the earliest images of Jesus being crucified but there are none. Okay, we have seen millions of such paintings but there are none for hundreds of years after his death. It is not until the fourth century that scenes of the Crucifixion of Jesus began to ..."
also the account has Jesus hung way too short a time to die--covered by Him "giving up the spirit" i guess. It's just...oh, 100, or at least 50 little things that just eventually start to add up--to what, i do not exactly know.
GE:
THIS MAN AS THE BLOOD OF GOD no eye of man could see
POURED OUT HIS SOUL even the blind by faith do see!
Everyone’s mindset in That Night and Day of Jesus’ last Passover of Yahweh Suffering, was to celebrate his blood, which clearly is seen in the tenor of all four Gospel records. Everyone wanted, craved, and sought after, his, blood, wherefore all desperately wanted him (against the Law of Moses which demanded the victim to be “hanged on a pole”) crucified, because the usual way to crucify was with arms and feet tied with ropes to the wood, but sometimes for no reason than sadistic pleasure to watch BLOOD shed, also with arms and feet nailed, to the wood. But on That Day, they crucified God in Christ, OMNIPOTENT IN “POWER”, “laying down his Life Himself”, “of Himself making Sacrifice”.
It was THEN, and THEREFORE, that when “all”, their demanding BLOOD despite, saw Jesus POURING OUT HIS SOUL giving up The Spirit and DIE, that they “all” and “everyone with beating heart, fled” their blood-lust unquenched, while the earth shook and the devil from heaven fell.
Nevertheless all Christianity fell for the Roman Catholic abomination of desolation of a ‘~jesus bleeding the mushier the more beautiful~’. Yes, that was what one wrote except he wrote ‘jesus’ with a capital ‘J’.)
John 18:12
τῶν Ἰουδαίων συνέλαβον τὸν Ἰησοῦν καὶ ἔδησαν αὐτὸν,
of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him.
Luke 22:54a
Συλλαβόντες δὲ αὐτὸν ἤγαγον
Then took (and bound) they him led him
καὶ εἰσήγαγον (αὐτὸν) εἰς τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ ἀρχιερέως·
and brought him into the the high priest’s house.
Matthew 26:58
τοῦ ἀρχιερέως, καὶ εἰσελθὼν ἔσω
high priest’s palace, and (Peter) went in,
ἐκάθητο μετὰ τῶν ὑπηρετῶν ἰδεῖν τὸ τέλος.
and sat with the servants, to see the end.
John 18:24
ἀπέστειλεν οὖν αὐτὸν ὁ Ἄννας δεδεμένον πρὸς Καϊάφαν τὸν ἀρχιερέα.
Now Annas had sent him bound unto Caiaphas the high priest.
Lukas 22:66b-71
67 Εἰ σὺ εἶ ὁ Χριστός, εἰπὸν ἡμῖν. εἶπεν δὲ αὐτοῖς
Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them,
Ἐὰν ὑμῖν εἴπω, οὐ μὴ πιστεύσητε·
If I tell you, ye will not believe.
ἐὰν δὲ ἐρωτήσω, οὐ μὴ ἀποκριθῆτε (μοι ἢ ἀπολύσητε).
And if I also ask, ye will not answer, nor let me go.
69 ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν δὲ ἔσται ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου καθήμενος
Hereafter shall the Son of man sit
ἐκ δεξιῶν τῆς δυνάμεως τοῦ Θεοῦ.
on the right hand of the power of God.
70 εἶπαν δὲ πάντες Σὺ οὖν εἶ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ;
Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God?
Mark 15:20b
Καὶ ἐξάγουσιν αὐτὸν ἵνα σταυρώσωσιν αὐτόν.
And they led him out to crucify him.
Matthew 27:31b
. . . καὶ ἀπήγαγον αὐτὸν εἰς τὸ σταυρῶσαι.
. . . and they (to shed This Man’s blood), led him away to crucify him…. (Crucifixion was their last and ultimate attempt to get Jesus to bleed... to no avail.)
BOL:
GE said: THIS MAN AS BLOOD OF A GOD no eye of man could see POURED OUT HIS SOUL even the blind could see!
That's a pathetically-ignorant understanding of Roman torture. History and archaeology informs us that the instruments used in scourging were NOT simply leather whips. The ends of the whips were fashioned with metal, bone, claws and anything else they could attach that would rip apart the flesh.
No, my Scripturally-ignorant friend - "Stripes" refers to BLOOD . . .
BB:
God "made" a garment of skin, right, God did not kill anything to get the skin; you are just being allowed to interpret that to suit yourself imo
GE:
So God created a garment on the Seventh Day... So THAT was God's work of the Seventh Day... And I thought “in six days God created everything that He had created”… ts ts me stupiiid!
GE: 28042019
No, you are just taking the liberty to interpret that to suit yourself. God did not "make" a skin, but used it and "made" coats of it, right, and for that, even God had to kill an animal to get the skin; and so even God, had to shed the animal’s blood whereby even God had to take its “life (that) is in the blood”.
GE:
In Jesus' case, “stripes” refers to "his stripes with which we are healed".
"I will be his Father, and He shall be My Son ... I will chasten Him with the rod of men and with the stripes of the children of men, but My Mercy shall not depart away from Him."
"If they break My Law I will visit their transgression with The Rod, and their iniquity with stripes (of My Rod); my lovingkindness will I not take from Him, nor suffer My Faithful to fail. My Covenant I will not break nor alter The Thing that is gone out of my lips. ... What Man is He That Liveth and shall not see death? Shall He deliver his soul from the (corrupting) hand of the grave? SELAH! ... “Thou shalt not suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.”
“Remember LORD, the reproach of Thy Servant, how I BEAR IN MY BOSOM THE REPROACH OF PEOPLE wherewith they have reproached THINE ANOINTED."
“I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though A Man declare it unto you.”
BOL:
In other words - you are dancing around the issue.
NONE of what you just posted answers the question I asked of you.
I asked you WHAT are the "stripes" Isaiah spoke of.
I didn't ask you what they did for us.
GE:
Please be consistent. First you asked me, '~What are "stripes" on a body that has been scourged with a Roman flagrum??~'
Then you ask me, '~WHAT are the "stripes" Isaiah spoke of.~'
Well, Isaiah did not speak of '~"stripes" on a body that has been scourged with a Roman flagrum~', most definitely, not!
LF:
the Jews wanted Jesus dead but Pilate feared the dream from his wife. In the end he caved and handed Jesus over to be crucified.
The roman solders mocked Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews when they placed the crown of thorns on his head. But Pilate also mocked the Jews, by acknowledging Jesus as the King of the Jews.
BOL:
Isaiah prophesied the wounding of Jesus. Isaiah 50:6 explicitly states:
I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who
pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
In a final blow to your argument, Isaiah 53:5 goes on to say:
“But he was WOUNDED for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with
his stripes we are healed.”
Merriam Webster's Collegiate Cictionary defines a "wound" as:
wound1 wo͞ond/
noun 1. an injury to living tissue caused by a cut, blow, or other impact, typically one in which the skin is cut or broken.
synonyms: injury, lesion, cut, gash, laceration, tear, slash;
What do you think they scourged Him with - a wet noodle??
Sorry, pal - you LOSE this one . . .
GE: 28042019
Pilate mocked the Jews, by acknowledging Jesus as the King of the Jews. What on earth could have forced Pilate to do that?
May 2, 2018#84 Who disagreed or argued against what Isaiah 53 and in fact all the Bible goes on to, to this day, say?
Isaiah 50:6 explicitly states, "I offered my back to those who beat Me, my cheeks to those who pulled my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting. So if they could "not keep on looking onto Moses' face for the glory of the Law, "which glory was to be DONE AWAY", why would they beat Jesus' back, pull his beard and spit in his face and mock Him OTHER THAN FOR FRUSTRATION THEY WERE POWERLESS TO DO AWAY WITH "THE GLORY OF GOD IN THE FACE OF JESUS"! Or is the Scriptures lying that state, "HIS FLESH SAW NO CORRUPTION!"?
"The reward of OUR sin is / was / meant and means, HIS death."
Isaiah 53:5, “He was wounded for / by reason of our transgressions, He was bruised for / by reason of our iniquities": "our transgressions and our iniquities" were the '~Roman flagrum~'; "our transgressions and our iniquities" were / are "the chastisement upon him, of / for / unto our peace"; and "our transgressions and our iniquities" are / were "his stripes by (which) we are healed”, He, having been KILLED by and for our sins "so that we, may live" by and for His Righteousness! Therefore was Jesus "made SIN FOR US" and our sins made the '~Roman flagrum~'. May 2, 2018#85 I gladly loose this one from non-Scripture secular dictionaries.
BOL:
Nice dodge - but NONE of this refutes the fact that he was
WOUNDED and BLED like a normal human being. The Bible tells us that He was like us in ALL things but SIN.
Try whipping yourself with a flagrum or try driving a nail through your hand and see if YOU don't bleed. While you're at it - stab yourself in the heart. I'll bet you my HOUSE that you will bleed . . .
May 2, 2018#87 Another impotent argument. "Wound" means the same now as it did in Jesus' time.
GE:
...may be... '~in time~' but certainly not 'in Jesus' who neither died nor suffered death at the hand and to the whims of sinful men, but because He had the Power and the Will to, for our sake and for our sin, suffer and die. In other words, Christ physically died "according to the Spirit of Holiness" Romans 1:3,4 the SAME "Spirit in Power" according to which ... yes, according to Whom ... He physically rose from the dead again, "His Holiness". Humans, sinners, mortals, had no power over Jesus not even over his flesh or blood or skin or the palms of his hands and HE DID NOT SUFFER DEATH according to the will and lusts of them, but the Holy Will of God. Not one hair would fall from his head but because it pleased God who willed it and let it fall.
BOL:
Yes, Jesus willingly went to his death - but it was at the hands of MEN. The Martyrs ALSO willingly went to their deaths at the hands of MEN. Pilate DID have power over His flesh - and Jesus even told him that he did:
John 19:11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."
Anyway - NONE of that you just said refutes the fact that Jesus bled at the hands of MEN.
Try again . . .
GE:
Nice self-contradictory statement! '~The Bible tells us that He was like us in ALL things but SIN.~' Death is the reward of sin; so is the blood the payment for sin -- of the sinner. But the Bible tells us that He was UNLIKE us in ALL things in that He was GOD conceived by the Holy Spirit "in the flesh" and born of a virgin "in the flesh", sinless, and at the very end, "TRIUMPHED ... in the flesh" preserved "in the flesh" sinless, having suffered "in the flesh" dying the death of death "in the flesh", and in The very New Beginning "in the flesh CAME" from the dead, from death and from the grave, the God-made New Creation "in the flesh" RAISED UP AND EXALTED, glorious and triumphant "in the flesh": "This Same Jesus Whom ye crucified, GOD-RAISED LORD AND CHRIST ... his flesh having seen no corruption" the corruption of "DEATH the reward for sin"-- "for our sin" in our flesh.
That was HOW VERY DIFFERENT Jesus was from us. He had no sin and was, no, '~normal human being~' and therefore suffered nothing of the reward of sin his own because He had no sin his own. And every time is it true, Christ Jesus "in the flesh" had no sin "in the flesh" and suffered nothing "in the flesh" of the reward of sin his own "in the flesh", because "in the flesh" his own, He had no sin his own. It is written God would not "ALLOW HIS ANOINTED" to suffer for sin not his own in his own, sinless, blameless, innocent and RIGHTEOUS, HOLY, FLESH. (Or, God forbid, the Lord God would
be unjust and unrighteous!) Acts 4:26-28.
BOL:
Every time you lose the argument - you take the conversation down another rabbit hole . . . Originally, you stated that Jesus never bled. We have proven you wrong over and over again - and now you're arguing a completely different point.
GE:
That's according to YOU. Which says all there is to say... to YOU.
BOL:
His flesh did not see decay because he was RESURRECTED before that could happen.
GE:
"And as concerning that He raised Him up from the dead never to have returned to corruption, he said on this wise, I WILL give you the SURE MERCIES of David wherefore He also saith in another Scripture, THOU SHALT NOT suffer Thine HOLY One to see corruption, for David fell on sleep and was laid unto his fathers and saw corruption", because '~decay could happen~' and had to happen -- unlike with Jesus, as it is WRITTEN, fast, unmistakable, "BECAUSE decay could NOT and would NOT happen never to have returned to corruption" '~before~', or, after, EVER!
So which are true Christians to believe, RCC tradition or the Word of God the Scriptures? I know which I trust!
BOL:
His flesh did not see decay because he was RESURRECTED before that could happen. His resurrected Body was his GLORIFIED body which was no longer subject to the laws of physics.
GE:
His resurrected Body was his from conception and birth GLORIFIED body which was never '~subject to the laws of physics~" but to the Laws of God, "I delight o God in Thy Law." "My delight is to do Thy
Will."
βασιλεύς εἰμι (ἐγὼ).
I AM King.
ἐγὼ εἰς τοῦτο γεγέννημαι καὶ εἰς τοῦτο ἐλήλυθα εἰς τὸν κόσμον,
To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world,
ἵνα μαρτυρήσω τῇ ἀληθείᾳ·
that I should bear witness unto the truth.
πᾶς ὁ ὢν ἐκ τῆς ἀληθείας ἀκούει μου τῆς φωνῆς.
Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Πειλᾶτος Τί ἐστιν ἀλήθεια;
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?
ἐγὼ εἰμι ἡ ἀλήθεια.
"I AM The Truth."
BOL:
Where do you get this anti-Biblical manure??
If His flesh was not subject to the laws of physics - there would have been NO need for Him to eat or drink. He wouldn't have grown from a baby into a man. He wouldn't have had a beard. He wouldn't have been able to be nailed to a cross.
The Son ALWAYS existed - but NOT incarnate. His glorified Body came AFTER His Resurrection.
As a matter of fact - Rev. 13:8 tells us that the Lamb had been SLAIN before the foundations of the world.
GE:
From two things, 1) the fact Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin the Son of God the Son of Man GLORIOUS ALMIGHTY GOD LORD AND SAVIOUR, suffered as Such, died and was buried as Such, and rose from the dead again as Such.
And 2) the Word of God WRITTEN and death of RCC tradition '~manure~'.
BOL:
YOU wrote: "His resurrected Body was his from conception and birth GLORIFIED body which was never '~subject to the laws of physics~"
NOWHERE does the Bible make this claim. The onus is on YOU to
show where it does. Until you can - this is anti-Biblical manure.
Chapter and verse, please . . .
GE:
Why must the Bible meet your requirements for it? But anyway, Jesus the Christ of God is Creator of all '~laws of physics~'. All the laws of physics are subject to Him!
PS Like when He walked on water.
BOL:
That's NOT the point. YOU were trying to say He waled on water because He had a glorified body at the time. He DIDN'T. We know this because Peter ALSO walked on water until he lost faith.
Try again . . .
GE:
Not <ALSO>. Peter sank; Jesus only, walked on the water. You, lie.
BOL:
His walking on water was a miracle - NOT the result of a glorified body. I have already shown you that PETER also walked on water when Jesus did. Was Peter's body "glorified" as well??
Answer: NOPE.
GE:
You showed me nothing. And until Peter like Jesus went on to the end walking on water and didn't have to scream for Jesus to save him from miserably drowning, he did not walk on water.
But Jesus "FINISHED ALL THE WORKS OF GOD" and "GLORIOUS IN TRIUMPH", "destroyed the last enemy, death"... all the way IN LIFE OF SUFFERING AND DEATH AND EVERLASTING RESURRECTION LIFE.
Bol:
Matt 14:29-30 Then Peter got down out of the boat, WALKED ON THE WATER and came toward Jesus. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”
Why don't you at least TRY to read the Scriptures before responding.
Don't you EVER tire of being proven wrong??
Bottom line here: You have been proven wrong about Jesus not having bled.
Bottom line here: You have been proven wrong about Jesus having a glorified Body from His conception.
Bottom line here: You have been proven wrong about Peter not having walked on water.
That's THREE strikes.
By MY count - you're out . . .
GE:
Matthew 14:29-30 Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”
Marshall, "Going down from the ship Peter walked on the waters and came TOWARD Jesus BUT SEEING the wind he was afraid and beginning to sink he cried out..."
Peter went down WITH and AS he stepped the first step over and down from the boat's side over the water ['epi ta hudata']. His was one moment’s movement and he sank. He did not like Jesus, walk on the waters as you claim he did; not one step. He stepped out and over with, and in doubt, and ended with, and in despair before Jesus had to save him.
But the irony here is, Peter was able in his sinful self to perform this miracle according to you, but Jesus His Divine and sinless Self according to you had no power over Himself or over harm the sinners improvised against Him.
BOL:
WRONG. John 14:29-30 Then Peter got down out of the boat, WALKED ON THE WATER and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”
Peter only sank because he lost faith due to fear.
Either STUDY the Scriptures - or stop debating them . . .
GE:
By your count... You hallucinate, mate. You're lying on your bottom on the mat without a shred of SCRIPTURE for...
Jesus having bled.
Jesus not having had a glorified body from His conception.
Bottom line here: You have not proven a thing about Jesus having allowed one drop of blood to corruption or death like an animal sacrificed for to pay for sins of another with its own blood.
And the argument is not about Peter having walked on water or not.
So this has been just another of your empty less than featherweight
boxer's shadow blows.
BOL:
HOGWASH. I never made this claim.
I can see in your desperation, however, that you've scoured the internet for somebody with an opinion similar to yours . . .
READ and pay attention:
Matt 14:29-30 Then Peter got down out of the boat, WALKED ON THE WATER and came toward Jesus. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”
Peter WALKED on the water and came toward Jesus before he got scared and BEGAN to sink.
It doesn't say that Peter dropped like a lead weight as soon as he stepped off the boat.
Finally - Peter didn't perform this miracle - JESUS did.
In the end, it's always the power of GOD that performs miracles. WE are just the instruments . . .
BOL:
I already gave you proof of His disappearing at will on the road to Emmaus and walking through locked doors (John 20:19).
He never did this PRIOR to His Resurrection.
GE:
If Jesus "in the flesh" and alive body of the "second Adam" were not "GOD incarnate", "GOD with us", "his own", viz., GOD'S own, his flesh would not have been '~subject~' OR NOT '~subject to the laws of physics~' depending on his independent Divine Will and Power. If Jesus’ "in the flesh" and alive body of the "second Adam" were not "GOD incarnate", "GOD with us", He would have had no need to eat or drink because He would not have become "God with US", "his own" God's creation, in need of eating and drinking food and water, breathing air and bathing in the sun; He wouldn't have grown from a baby into a man, He wouldn't have grown a beard... and, would NOT have been ABLE, would NOT have HAD THE POWER, GOD'S OWN STRENGTH, SOVEREIGNTY OR AUTHORITY, to be nailed to a cross.
But having had all the power of Divinity as a Man after as well as before his Resurrection, Jesus was able to do all the things He had done after as well as before his Resurrection AND NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HAVE DONE NO DIFFERENT.
GE:
That's what I have been saying all along, except that He --gloriously-- was doing the same prior to, as, after his Resurrection.
As about the specific particulars with reference to John 20:19, I repeat, there is nothing written or implied that Jesus customarily or exceptionally at occasion THERE, appeared or walked through locked doors or walls. Nothing.
And make up your mind, was it one or more doors or one or more walls he allegedly walked or appeared through?
In any case, what has the whole scenario in John 20:19 to do with Jesus having suffered death "pouring out his SOUL" not his blood while dying the death of death the reward for our sins which He carried in our place in order that we might be saved his death on our behalf?
BOL:
This is a ridiculous point. The doors were LOCKED and Jesus appeared there with them. Whether He walked through the door or simply materialized is NOT the point. In His glorified state, he was able to appear and vanish at will.
He NEVER did these things PRIOR to His death and resurrection.
GE:
Jesus did not disappear on the road to Emmaus but at the table in Emmaus. On the road to Emmaus, Luke wrote, "He neared and walked along with them"; Luke didn't write '~He appeared at will~' like you say Jesus did.
BOL:
Would you have been more satisfied if I said on the "WAY" to
Emmaus??
Good grief - you know what I meant.
BOL:
I'll say one thing for you - you're a good dancer. However, you fail as a debater.
NONE of this rant answers ANY of the points I brought up.
Jesus ate.
Jesus drank.
Jesus grew up.
Jesus wept.
Jesus bled.
Jesus was executed.
These are things of the FLESH - and He was like us in ALL things but sin.
GE:
These were things Jesus did "in the flesh",
Jesus ate. Many Scriptures.
Jesus drank. Many Scriptures.
Jesus grew up. There are some Scriptures.
Jesus wept. There is one Scripture.
Jesus was executed. "According to the Scriptures" to God's Will.
For '~Jesus bled~' there is no Scripture.
Why?
Because '~He was like us in ALL things but sin.~' There are no things Jesus did '~of the flesh~'.
BOL:
It was ALL according to God's will. What difference that that make?
As for your 2nd comment in RED - that's your WHOLE argument?? that Jesus couldn't have bled because Her was sinless??
Ummmm, He DIED yet He was sinless - so what makes you think He couldn't bleed??
Please try to give a clear, concise and lucid response to this question.
GE:
The difference between your view and my view, your version and my version, your meaning and the meaning of the Scripture.
BOL:
Yes - and yours is a heretical view.
BOL:
The Son ALWAYS existed - but NOT incarnate. His glorified Body came AFTER His Resurrection.
As a matter of fact - Rev. 13:8 tells us that the Lamb had been SLAIN before the foundations of the world.
GE:
Note the contradiction: '~His glorified Body came AFTER His Resurrection.~'; '~the Lamb had been SLAIN before the foundations of the world.~'
BOL:
No "contradiction" at all. The Lamb slain before the foundations of the world was not yet INCARNATE . . .
BOL:
The Son ALWAYS existed - but NOT incarnate. His glorified Body came AFTER His Resurrection.
GE:
The Son ALWAYS existed - and incarnated "The Son" and Glory of
God "before the world was". "O Father, glorify Thou Me..." --Jesus before He even died--, "...glorify Thou Me with Thine Own Self with the glory which I had WITH THEE before the world was."
BOL, however, insists, <His glorified Body came AFTER His Resurrection>.
BOL:
He could come through walls and locked doors - appear and disappear
at will. NONE of this, however has anything to do with the fact that in his UNGLORIFIED state - he was tortured, bled and was put to death. they couldn't have done that to Him in his glorified state - but they DID do that to Him in His UNGLORIFIED flesh.
Jesus truly bled for us because without blood there is NO forgiveness (Heb. 9:22). ALL true Christians know this - so go peddle your heresy somewhere else.
GE:
So why do you refer to '~this~' if '~NONE of this has anything to do with the fact that ... he was tortured~' etc.? Fact is, the fact that He was tortured, WAS and IS the glory and glorification of Jesus in that though they wanted his blood He did not bleed and in that, though they desired to put Him to death He did not allow them to put Him to death, but Himself gave his life's spirit into his Father's hands, and was glorified therein that the Spirit of God covered Him with the very "Presence of the Almighty" in the most holy place of his sepulchre in view of his final glory and glorification "when God raised Him from the dead by the EXCEEDING GREATNESS OF THE POWER OF HIS MIGHTY STRENGTH AND EXALTED HIM AT HIS OWN RIGHT HAND IN HIS HEAVENLY MAJESTY."
BOL:
His flesh did not see decay because he was RESURRECTED before that could happen.
GE:
It could never happen unless Jesus sinned before He died.
BOL:
And I've already proven to you that He DID bleed.
You haven't been able to refute a single thing I've presented.
Oh, by the way - repeated denials don't add up to ONE fact . . .
GE:
ALL true Christians know "without blood there is NO forgiveness" stands in Hebrews 9:22 OF AND FOR THE BYGONE MOSAIC “MINISTRATION OF DEATH”, NOT of or for the "Ministration of Life" of Jesus Christ.
GE:
Repeated claims don't add up to one fact.
GE:
All I'm saying to you is that you use the Old Dispensation Law for blood-sacrifice which simply cannot apply to Christ the New Priesthood "to the Law of INDESTRUCTIBLE LIFE". Blood sacrifice simply doesn't work and simply does not apply in the case of Jesus Christ Our Passover Lamb of GOD WITHOUT SHEDDING OF BLOOD the ANTI-type of blood sacrifice and atonement.
BOL:
Sorry pal - you LOSE again.
Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the Law - but to FULFILL it (Matt. 5:17). The Mosaic Law was not "bygone" until AFTER Jesus was finished with what He had to do.
GE:
Who's talking! It's you saying the wine presently, this day, is Jesus' blood drunk for forgiveness of sins; not I.
GE:
"And as concerning that He raised Him up from the dead never to have returned to corruption, he said on this wise, I WILL give you the SURE MERCIES of David wherefore He also saith in another Scripture, THOU SHALT NOT suffer Thine HOLY One to see corruption, for David fell on sleep and was laid unto his fathers and saw corruption", because '~decay could happen~' and had to happen -- unlike with Jesus, as it is WRITTEN, fast, unmistakable, "BECAUSE decay could NOT and would NOT happen never to have returned to corruption" '~before~', or, after, EVER!
So which are true Christians to believe, RCC tradition or the Word of God the Scriptures? I know which I trust!
BOL:
WRONG.
If Jesus didn't rise from the dead - then He would have eventually decayed because it would have meant that He wasn't God.
And AGAIN - none of this refutes the fact that He bled, now does it??
GE:
BreadOfLife said: ↑ He could come through walls and locked doors - appear and disappear at will.
Like He did before his death and resurrection.
BOL:
I was unaware that He walked through locked doors and through walls before His Resurrection. Can you show me where the Bible makes this claim?? Chapter and verse, please . . .
GE:
I was aware it is written nowhere at any time '~that He walked
through locked doors and through walls~'. But the principle behind the idea, John 10:37-39 for example; or Matthew 14:26 Luke 8:24 and every miracle He did before his Resurrection.
BOL:
You are forgetting that Peter ALSO walked on water - until he doubted.
GE:
You are forgetting that Jesus walked on water because He, never
doubted.
BOL:
This miracle of Jesus was not only possible because He was God. It was possible for ANYBODY who had faith.
As for miracles in general - ALL of the Apostles performed miracles after Jesus ascended to Heaven and NONE of them had glorified bodies. Try again . . .
GE:
Try again . . . none of them had glorified bodies. Good observation in general.
BOL:
Neither did Jesus - until AFTER the Resurrection.
LF:
According to you is Jesus' resurrected body still flesh and blood?
GE:
"THIS Jesus you crucified God raised Lord and Christ."
"THIS SAME Jesus ... ye stand gazing at ... is taken up ... THIS SAME Jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have SEEN HIM ... taken up."
"Every spirit (living man) that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is COME IN THE FLESH is not of God ... For many deceivers are entered into the world who confess not that Jesus Christ is COME IN THE FLESH. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."
"Is come in the flesh" EVERY TIME, at birth, at Resurrection from the dead, at coming in the clouds of heaven : "Is come in the flesh" is now "being in the flesh".
That is confessing Jesus, "come" -- "come in the flesh" in resurrected body of flesh and blood. So help me God, as incomprehensible so is it why, I believe what I believe.
LF:
Indeed he is come in the flesh, but not only flesh. When Jesus refered
to his body speaking to thomas he called it flesh and bone.
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Luke 24:39 His blood was poured out before he accended to the Father. How else can the following be true?
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:50
BG:
Can you explain to me why it is so important to him..( GE ) to prove that Jesus did not bleed!! I just don't get it. This is foundational faith to us all..
BOL:
Unfortunately, I can't explain his heretical views.
GE:
For a high-up in the hierarchy full blown RC priest who boasts he has been <Exposing anti-Catholic lies online for 15 years . . .> IT'S NOT TOO BAD in fact!
BOL:
As Martin Luther once wrote: "There are almost as many sects and
beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams." - (Martin Luther, Christians at Antwerp, 1525)
GE:
Why not pay attention to GE's own explanations coming in as fast as he can? '~This is foundational faith to us all...~' very true. You already saw that which shows you're well on your way to prove the whole importance.
GE:
lforrest ↑ <wrote, <Indeed he is come in the flesh, but not only flesh. When Jesus refered to his body speaking to thomas he called it flesh and bone.
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 24:39 KJV
His blood was poured out before he accended to the Father. How else can the following be true?
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV>
May 3, 2018#120 My old friend, happy to read from you again. I hope this time, you may find some light. My old friend, "flesh" is flesh - muscles and stuff; and muscles and stuff without blood are / is not 'flesh' just like 'body' - 'structure' without bone(s) is no 'body'. Your idea of a bloodless resurrected Jesus is no more than bad linguistics which has no relevance with truth or faith in Jesus.
Jesus was not dead his "LIFE in the blood" spilt to death like an animal of sacrifice, but before He died He VITALLY AND ENERGETICALLY, WORKING, LABOURING, OBEYING AND WILLING, absorbed oxygen through his "whole and substantial" body parts including first and foremost his blood while "He poured out his soul" and very Life's energy.
No moment in all of Jesus' life was He more or better ALIVE AND WITHOUT SHORTCOMING than when and as He actively, alive, and "IN-THE-BONE" perfect in body, soul and mind, "offered up Himself" to God, and into the hands of his Father, "committed", his "life's-spirit" which permeated the "BONE" and "WHOLE" and "SUBSTANCE" of his "BEING" ['etsem'].
BOL:
And I've already proven to you that He DID bleed.
You haven't been able to refute a single thing I've presented.
Oh, by the way - repeated denials don't add up to ONE fact . . .
GE:
Repeated claims don't add up to one fact.
BOL:
Wrong. Repeated claims - with Scriptural evidence DO add up to fact.
Your repeated denials without any evidence, however, do not . . .
LF:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV
GE:
That's right, "flesh and blood" = "corruption" = natural man regenerate or and not regenerate ≠ Jesus.
APAK:
GE..your answer is similar to most Trinitarians...confusing and untrue...because this is one of several areas of scripture where the Trinity model breaks down completely. The Father did not forsake Jesus. He did separate himself from his Son temporarily though.
As Stranger said...Jesus' spirit was separated from his Father as Jesus HAD to die as one under the Law in Hades. Incidentally Hades is considered a place of the Father's domain after death; as is Paradise. All spirits are in the Father's keeping after death.
His Father reunited him with himself in his resurrection...to immortality for the first time in his existence.
Sunday at 1:54 PM#132
GE:
I lack the decency and craftsmanship in fact christian virtue of patience to waste my time on your c.r.a.p., CRAP!
BOL:
As for your 2nd comment in RED - that's your WHOLE argument?? that Jesus couldn't have bled because Her was sinless?? Ummmm, He DIED yet He was sinless - so what makes you think
He couldn't bleed??
GE:
Yes, He died because though He was sinless, "He was made sin for us". So why could He and DID He not shed any blood? Because shod He his blood, shod He his "life in his blood" like any mortal animal sacrifice DIES; was He no more or different or better than the blood sacrifices of both Jews and heathen pagans which had to be sacrificed and are offered daily without end as proven by their Roman Catholic BLEEDING jesus human replica.
PS… And of course, '~He could not bleed~', simply, because "it is written". En daarmee, basta!
BOL:
No - your comment in REDS [GE: May 4, 2018#142 By your count... Jesus not having had a glorified body from His conception.] is not MY responsibility. YOU are the one making this heretically asinine claim - so the onus is on YOU to show evidence for it.
GE:
Here is YOUR evidence of YOU making this heretically asinine claim,
BOL:
Where do you get this anti-Biblical manure?? … The Son ALWAYS existed - but NOT incarnate. His glorified Body came AFTER His Resurrection.
BOL:
No - your comment in REDS is not MY responsibility.
YOU are the one making this heretically asinine claim - so the onus is on YOU to show evidence for it.
BOL:
Of ALL of the heretical manure you've spewn on this thread - I find your comment above in RED [GE: May 3, 2018#141] Yes, He died because though He was sinless, "He was made sin for us". So why could He and DID He not shed any blood? Because shod He his blood, shod He his "life in his blood" like any mortal animal sacrifice DIES; was He no more or different or better than the blood sacrifices of both Jews and heathen pagans which had to be sacrificed and offered daily without end as proven by their Roman Catholic BLEEDING jesus human replica. PS And of course, '~He could not bleed~', simply, because "it is written".] to be the most abominable.
I don't know what your agenda is here - other than the fact that you don't know SQUAT about God and His Word. BUT to say that the blood of our Lord, which gives US eternal life is no better than a pagan sacrifice is not only heresy - it's outright blasphemy.
GE:
Particularly Roman Catholics are entitled to their own opinion and judgement.
BOL:
This has nothing to do with Catholic vs. Protestant.
It has to do with Christian vs. blasphemy . . .
BOL:
As for your second comment in RED - show me where this is written.
Chapter and verse, please . . .
GE:
Many places, for example,
Isaiah 52, 53
“From every text in the Bible there is a road to Jesus Christ.” C. H. Spurgeon.
From Isaiah 52:8, “…when the LORD shall bring again Zion”, the road to Jesus Christ is the waste places of Jerusalem on Zion, on the Passover of Yahweh from Egypt through Babylon... the road to Jesus Christ from the Table to the Tree, on the fourteenth day of the First Month when they killed the Passover of Yahweh.
From Isaiah 52:9, “…Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem”, the road to Jesus Christ, is the People of the LORD “comforted”, is, Jerusalem “redeemed”. “Thou stretched out Thy Right Hand .. Thou in Thy Mercy hast led forth the people, the people Thou hast redeemed, whom Thou hast guided in Thy Strength unto The Holy Habitation .. till the people pass over, O Lord, till the people pass over which Thou hast purchased. Thou shalt bring them in and plant them in the mountain of Thine Inheritance, The Place Thou hast made for Thee to dwell in, The Sanctuary, O Lord, thy hands have established. The LORD shall reign for ever and ever. .. Sing ye to the LORD, for He hath triumphed gloriously…” the road to Christ "on the sixteenth day of .. the First Month the Passover of Yahweh for you.”
As I said, many!
GE:
It is written in that it is not written for anyone with an IQ between 60
and 300… no, between 40 and 300.
BOL:
Translation:
"I'm switching to gibberish now because you've backed me into a corner that I can't get out of."
BOL:
No - your comment in REDS is not MY responsibility.
YOU are the one making this heretically asinine claim - so the onus is on YOU to show evidence for it.
As for whether He bled or not - I HAVE shown Scriptural evidence that Jesus was like US - in ALL things but sin. I even challenged you to drive a nail through your hand to see if it bleeds. I also showed the corresponding prophecy from Isaiah 53 about His "stripes" after being beaten. YOU, on the pother hand, have shown ZERO evidence for your invented claims . . .
May 4, 2018#154 Tuesday at 6:18 PM #312
GE:
I haven't ~scoured the internet~; I used my 1958 Interlinear or what's left of it from so many years' use. But here's my 1933 Afrikaans Translation,
“29 En Hy sê: Kom! Petrus klim toe van die skuit af en loop op die
water om na Jesus te gaan. 30 Maar toe hy die sterk wind sien (gewaarword / besef), het hy bang geword; en toe hy begin sink, roep hy uit…”
In English it will read,
“Peter immediately [‘toe’] climbed out of the boat and immediately [‘toe’] walked with the intention to go [Infinitive of purpose] to Jesus. But immediately [‘toe’] seeing (becoming aware of) the strong wind, he immediately [‘toe’] became afraid; and immediately as [‘toe’] he
began to sink, he called out…”.
As I said, the whole event happened at once as it were in the twinkling of an eye.
But here's the first century Greek original,
29ὁ δὲ εἶπεν Ἐλθέ.
And He said, Come.
καὶ - Then at once
καταβὰς – as he was starting to go down – Ingressive Aorist
ἀπὸ τοῦ πλοίου – from the ship
Πέτρος περιεπάτησεν – Peter started to - Ingressive Aorist – περι- in every direction to -επάτησεν – kick / trample / air-walk
ἐπὶ – over / above
τὰ ὕδατα - the water
καὶ - while / at once (quite comically like Bux Bunny in the air)
ἦλθεν πρὸς – he started to (Ingressive Aorist) come towards/reach for
τὸν Ἰησοῦν – Jesus
βλέπων δὲ – while at the same time seeing – Present Participle
τὸν ἄνεμον – the wind / storm
ἐφοβήθη – he was beginning to be scared – Ingressive Aorist Passive
καὶ - while at once
ἀρξάμενος - beginning – Ingressive Aorist Participle
καταποντίζεσθαι – to be sunk – Present Passive Infinitive
ἔκραξεν λέγων – he began to cry out – Ingressive Aorist
Κύριε, σῶσόν με. – Lord, save me!
εὐθέως δὲ - And immediately
ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐκτείνας – Jesus while stretching out – Aorist Participle
τὴν χεῖρα ἐπελάβετο αὐτοῦ - his hand took hold of him
καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ Ὀλιγόπιστε – and said to him, O of little faith!
εἰς τί ἐδίστασας – why didst thou doubt?
It ALL happened at once
BOL:
Let's see what Strong's Greek Concordance has to say . . . .
Πέτρος περιεπάτησεν ἐπὶ τὰ ὕδατα
Peter walked on the water
NOTHING about a "twinkling of an eye" here.
If Peter immediately sank - then he would have dropped like a lead weight. He DIDN'T. He actually walked on the water before getting scared and BEGAN TO sink.
Tell you what - why don't YOU try walking across a pool. You will sink immediately - WITHOUT actually walking ON the water like Peter did.
YOUR problem is that you refuse to accept the Word of God.
That's been your problem ALL along on this thread . . .
Triumph1300:
So, you'r fluent in Greek?
BOL:
He isn't even fluent in English . . .
BOL: BreadOfLife said: ↑
GerhardEbersoehn May 4, 2018#151 said:
No - your comment in REDS is not MY responsibility.
YOU are the one making this heretically asinine claim - so the onus is on YOU to show evidence for it.
As for whether He bled or not - I HAVE shown Scriptural evidence that Jesus was like US - in ALL things but sin. I even challenged you to drive a nail through your hand to see if it bleeds. I also showed the corresponding prophecy from Isaiah 53 about His "stripes" after being beaten. YOU, on the pother hand, have shown ZERO evidence for your invented claims . . .
GE:
This – your post May 4, 2018#151 BreadOfLife said: ↑ – is the full
<evidence> that you, <making this heretically asinine claim - <Jesus
not having had a glorified body from His conception .. in REDS> .. is YOUR <responsibility> and was your answer to my challenge to you that May 4, 2018#142Q~You're lying on your bottom on the mat without a shred of SCRIPTURE for...
[A] Jesus having bled.
for...
[B] Jesus not having had a glorified body from His conception.~Q
BOL:
No - your comment in REDS is not MY responsibility.
YOU are the one making this heretically asinine claim - so the onus is on YOU to show evidence for it.
As for whether He bled or not - I HAVE shown Scriptural evidence that Jesus was like US - in ALL things but sin. I even challenged you to drive a nail through your hand to see if it bleeds. I also showed the corresponding prophecy from Isaiah 53 about His "stripes" after being beaten. YOU, on the pother hand, have shown ZERO evidence for your invented claims . . .
GE:
This – your post May 4, 2018#151 BreadOfLife said: ↑ – is the full <evidence> that you, <making this heretically asinine claim - <Jesus not having had a glorified body from His conception .. in REDS> .. is YOUR <responsibility> and was your answer to my challenge to you that May 4, 2018#142Q~You're lying on your bottom on the mat without a shred of SCRIPTURE for...
[A] Jesus having bled.
for...
[B] Jesus not having had a glorified body from His conception.~Q
BOL:
As for whether He bled or not - I HAVE shown Scriptural evidence that Jesus was like US - in ALL things but sin. I even challenged you to drive a nail through your hand to see if it bleeds. I also showed the corresponding prophecy from Isaiah 53 about His "stripes" after being beaten. YOU, on the pother hand, have shown ZERO evidence for your invented claims . . .
GE:
So, according to you and Catholicism, Christ shod his blood like the blood of sacrifices under the 'ministration of death' was shod, because their "life was in the blood". That is you, not I, claiming and declaring Christ's life was no more or different or better than the life of the blood sacrifices of both Jews and heathen pagans. I don't claim or declare that.
I believe in that Jesus "poured / shed out his SOUL", He therein and therewith and thereby metaphorically shod his blood, viz., He shed his blood SPIRITUALLY, not literally like mortal sacrifices, but as "God, justified in the Spirit, manifest in the flesh".
I believe because Jesus "is the Blessed and Only Potentate, the ETERNAL, IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE who ONLY has Immortality and Inhabits Light unapproachable", "He poured out his SOUL" though "NO man has seen or (could) see", and nevertheless, is He "believed in by his messengers and (is He) preached to the Gentiles".
God judges what and which is Truth, blood on portraits protruding from 'the Virgin Mary's' eyes, or the blood in "His Soul poured out" that cannot with mortal hand be imitated or eye be seen.
BOL:
And now the onus is on YOU to show us where the bible says that Jesus poured out and shed His soul and NOT His blood.
Isaiah 53 12 says:
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
HOWEVER - Rom. 5:9 assures us: Since we have now been justified by his BLOOD, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! Learn how to properly divide Scripture - instead of twisting it to your own destruction . . .
GE:
Learn how to properly divide Scripture instead of twisting it to your own destruction . . . precisely as here where you leave out the follow-up verses to Romans 5:9, and IGNORE the equation / identification: "by his BLOOD" = "through him".
BOL:
I didn't "leave out" anything.
GE:
You '~didn't "leave out" anything~'? '~we are reconciled to God through the death of His Son~' You left out "we are reconciled to God through the LIFE of His Son much rather", that's what you left out. That, is '~your Scriptural perversions~'.
BOL:
I didn't "leave out" anything. I would not waste my advice on you and recommend you life. Scripture's position is that Jesus ever saved his own with his LIFE. Mark 10:45 Matthew 20:28 John 10:11 Romans 5:10 Philippians 3:11 1John 3:16; 5:11-13.
the verses that follow simply support verse 9. They talk about the fact that we are reconciled to God through the death of His Son.
Your position is that Jesus never shed His blood. You have been losing this arguments for several pages now because of your Scriptural perversions. My advice to you is to get into a good Scripture study. I can recommend a few if you'd like . . .
BOL:
The doors were LOCKED and Jesus appeared there with them.
GE:
No Scripture, no word, '~appeared~' the words are, "He came" and "He stood". It says the doors, probably a left and right hand 'double door', was locked because of their fear of the Jews. ("He who doesn't have a God fears even though there is no pursuers." Their God they feared was gone forever.) But because it was He, who "came", they had to open the doors for Him, and He, as He "stood among them", “greeted them" with, "Peace to you!"
But now, the crux of the matter in this discussion has been that I have believed and defended that the holes in his body were Divine, that is, Powerful Signs of Jesus' omnipotence so that there not like from a mortal creature, at any time in his "anguish of SOUL" from "in the flesh" came out blood, while you, deny it! Instead of believing the reality and truth, you run amok with RCC tradition--with lies. For what, is the question? To justify your Sunday worship! Never forget!
PS… Again the irony is blatantly clear. Your adversaries the Sunday rejecters and Sabbath worshippers are on your side like are they and you, B.L.O.O.D. brothers.
BOL:
No - the holes in Jesus's hands and feet - and the hole in his side were not "divinely" cause - but caused by human beings. Nails and a spear
made those holes - YOUR heretical opinions, notwithstanding . . .
GE:
So '~human beings~' caused the holes to be immortal. John 20:19. And '~human beings~' from eternity '~made those holes~' Psalms 22:16.
BOL:
Psalm 22:16 "THEY pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones." 'Nuff said . . . May 4, 2018#151 I even challenged you to drive a nail through your hand to see if it bleeds.
GE:
What a silly challenge any sane person of course will turn down; I am not Jesus, not Divine, not sinless, not holy, NOT THE GLORIOUS GLORIFIED Jesus, Saviour of his people. I am one Jesus had to save with his WORTHY TO BE WORSHIPPED SELF ONLY.
BOL:
Jesus redeemed the world with His blood - and nothing less . . .
GE:
Yes, his Life’s “SOUL poured out” redeemed whomsoever He redeemed.
BOL:
Ummmm . . . aren't YOU the one who pointed out that Lev. 17:14 tells us that life is contained in the blood?? To pour out one's blood IS
to pour our one's life, Einstein . . . (Emphasis GE)
To pour out one's blood IS to pour our one's life, Einstein . . .
GE:
God is Witness!
BOL:
This conversation was over a YEAR ago when your posts descended into mindless gibberish.
Do you want to RESTART the debate - is that it??
GE:
This conversation took place, <May 6, 2018#172>
BOL:
John 17:50 isn't talking about his being incarnated BEFORE he came to earth. This is YOUR perverse interpretation.
GE:
No; this is the BOL talking bollie of me, GE, who does not speak about <his being incarnated BEFORE he came to earth>! You're a perverse liar, BOL.
BOL:
Ummmm . . . aren't YOU the one who pointed out that Lev. 17:14 tells us that life is contained in the blood?? To pour out one's blood IS to pour our one's life, Einstein . . .
GE:
More than once, yes. Leviticus 17:14 tells the life of ANIMAL
SACRIFICE is contained in the blood; the whole Bible tells the blood of the Lamb of God Our Passover is in his "INDESTRUCTIBLE LIFE". For HIM, to have poured out His SOUL, was to pour our His Life, and in and with pouring out his Life and Soul, the Son of God the Son of Man his Name, poured out and commended and gave his breath, his spirit, his blood, his ALL, his LOVE, his DIVINITY AND HUMANITY INTO HIS FATHER'S HAND, AND DIED. (Did Jesus
shed his blood into his Father's hands and die? God forbid!)
BOL:
I HAVE shown Scriptural evidence that Jesus was like US - in ALL things but sin.
GE:
You don't have to show, the Scriptures have all the evidence, evidence
such as that the fact and truth that Jesus was like us in all things but sin, is only half the truth, is not the whole truth and although it is nothing but the truth, in your mouth and from your mouth is become the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, corrupted and abused.
BOL:
Read this run-on sentence back to yourself and try to make sense out of it. What a confused hodgepodge of drivel . . .
ByGrace:
Jesus Christ..The last Lamb slain.
Lev 17-11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."
GE:
Wonderful! Jesus Christ .. The last Lamb slain. For I Jesus Christ gave My Life for your blood upon the altar of death to make an atonement for your souls: for it is My Life that makes atonement for your sins in the flesh.
Leviticus 17-11 "For it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul" but it is the Soul of the Lamb of God that maketh an atonement for the blood, the very life, of sinners.
GE:
Jesus Christ .. the only "Lamb-of-God", slain "once for all", "Sacrifice of Himself".
He "poured out his SOUL".
“Thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin”
“Of the travail of his soul shall he be satisfied”
“He hath poured out his soul unto death”.
The life of the blood sacrifices was shed in their blood being shed; but Jesus' blood was shed in his soul, his Life, being poured out.
“My lovingkindness will I not take from Him, nor suffer My Faithful to fail. My Covenant I will not break nor alter The Thing that is gone out of my lips. ... What Man is He That Liveth and shall not see death? Shall He deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?”
BOL:
And now the onus is on YOU to show us where the bible says that Jesus poured out and shed His soul and NOT His blood.
Isaiah 53 12 says: Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
GE:
I would have '~shown~' it no different... You did well! ...for once... “because he poured out his life unto death”.
BOL:
Soooo, you admit defeat on this point?
Good for you . . .
GE:
Leviticus 17-11 "For it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul" but it is the Soul of the Lamb of God that maketh an atonement for the blood, the very life, of sinners.
Sinners, men, are the real animals whose blood should be sacrificed and shed for their life of sin, their soul’s blood and constitution. But man, you, and I, made Christ in our stead the Life sacrificed and Soul poured out for our blood and life in -- life of, sin. Having been “made sin for us”, “Christ was made” LIFE “for us”, "was made" our, LIFE.
Note, the blood, the very life, of sinners!
Mark the words, that they mean, blood is, the very life of, sinners!
Now that is, how, Jesus “Christ, was made SIN, for us”!
And now note and see, and respect, that that says, that “the life…” of animal sacrifice “…is in the blood” according to the Law of the OT Scriptures;
but, note and see, and respect, that that, according to ALL the Scriptures Old and New Testaments says, that the "Blood of Christ", "Our Passover", "the Lamb of God", was “HIS SOUL, SHED and POURED OUT” for US and for the SIN that WE, ARE.
GE:
The forgiveness of Christ has no half-life.
BB:
the law requires that nearly everything be made “clean” with blood.
and there is no forgiveness without blood being shed (under the law)
BOL:
To pour out one's blood IS to pour our one's life
GE:
That's why Paul says, "I do not frustrate the grace of God, because, if righteousness be BY THE LAW..." '~nearly everything [all sin the only certainty] be made “clean” with blood~', "...THEN, CHRIST IS DEAD IN VAIN" and DIED in vain! Therefore, IMHO, since "Christ made Sacrifice of Himself" by "the Indestructible-Law-OF-HIS-LIFE", He ROSE from the dead again so that "the grace of God is not frustrated". The law which required that every sin be "made clean with blood" FRUSTRATES THE GRACE OF GOD since Christ Resurrected LIKE HE DIED, by the Law of Indestructible LIFE.
But people like you and PoisonedBread never stop abusing this truth of Scripture. Like actually with this post of yours for the umpteenth time you did again!
GE:
For Jesus to have "poured out his SOUL" was to pour out, suffer, shed, give, sacrifice, offer, his Divine-Human LIFE, and SUFFER AND DIE AND BE BURIED, AND RISE again!
Because Jesus was no man an inherent sinner like us, but was sinless, GOD born in the flesh "GOD-with-us", GOD, "made sin for us", made sin for our sins, and made sin for the forgiveness of our sins and sinfulness--The Sinless, PERFECT "Lamb of God". As this GOD with us, "Behold The Man!" Christ Jesus "Son of God" both "lifted up" and "exalted" both in Suffering, in being Crucified, in Dying the death of death, both in Death and in being Buried, both in RESURRECTION from the dead, from death and from the grave, "BOTH LORD AND CHRIST", "The Son of Man" in being both Resurrected and Exalted at the Right Hand of the Throne of God His Heavenly Majesty!
After all there is NO comparison between, NO similarity of, NO equality in Jesus Christ and us, sinners, except that He The Glorious One of God was born "in the flesh", suffered "in the flesh", died "in the flesh", was buried "in the flesh", rose from the dead, death and the grave "in the flesh" and was exalted The Glorious One of God "on The Right Hand of The Throne of God", "in the flesh".
"He who denies Jesus Christ COME IN THE FLESH IS ANTICHRIST."
GE:
"THIS, SAME, Jesus you crucified, God RAISED UP Lord and Christ", "THIS SAME Jesus", born in a manger, "God exalted at his own right hand".
And there are in fact those, or at least one, nay, two persons, who here in this discourse, are denying that Christ came in the flesh, KEPT, UNBLEMISHED, UNSCATHED, WITHOUT FAULT in and with and of the SAME body of the SAME flesh AND THE SAME, BLOOD.
Who in fact argue Jesus rose again without blood. Now you are one of
those two persons, only you say, He rose again without SOME blood. But it doesn't work that way. Whether one eat an apple against God's instruction or kill one's own father against God's instruction, IT IS THE SAME DISOBEDIENCE AND GUILT.
BOL:
In other words, you have no intelligent response for the verse I
presented about how men killed Jesus. That's what I thought . . .
GE:
No, that’s what’s your problem!
BOL:
And you keep bobbing and weaving like an elusive boxer with your responses.
FIRST, you claimed that Jesus didn't shed any blood.
NOW, you're all over the place - throwing new confused and disheveled arguments into the mix that had NOTHING to do with the original argument.
Your entire position now is one of confused desperation . . .
GE:
You do not know about our previous discussions, BOL.
GE:
Jesus I am the Life, said: "You would have no power over me". "Thou couldest have no power against me", but Dead Bread said, '~Pilate DID have power over His flesh - and Jesus even told him that he did:~' a direct contradiction making Jesus a liar.
Jesus was He with whom Pilate was confronted in the body of his flesh, and Jesus saying to Pilate, You cannot, you are unable to do anything whatsoever against Me, is specifically referring to Pilate's inability to do Him physical or bodily or fleshly harm. So Jesus told Pilate that "He therefore who handed Me over to you", was his heavenly Father, the "One-from-above", the "One-from-everlasting". whom Pilate kept on to resist. Obviously metaphorically withstood, so that "you, Pontius Pilate, "have so much bigger sin!", or more literally, so that "he (Pilate) has so much bigger sin". Bigger sin because it was not only Jesus, but his Father from above, who handed
Him over to Pilate.
In his humiliation, Jesus through his humiliation triumphing greatly, conquered.
BOL:
STILL trying to show that Jesus didn't bleed, huh.
What a losing proposition . . .
First of all - Pilate DID have authority over Jesus - and Jesus TOLD him that he did. Jesus was put to death under the Authority of Pilate.
John 19:11 "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above."
Game.
SET
MATCH.
GE:
“But the wicked cast up mire and dirt.”
"He that dwell in the secret Places of the Most High abide under the shadow of the Almighty ... With Thine eyes shalt Thou behold and see only the reward of the wicked."
"My eye shall see My Desire on mine enemies, my ears shall hear My Desire of the wicked that rise up against Me."
"Because Thou hast made the LORD-My-Refuge-The-Most-High thy habitation there shall NO EVIL BEFALL Thee neither shall ANY PLAGUE come nigh thy Dwelling, The Most High, FOR HE SHALL KEEP THEE IN ALL THY WAYS. ... I will SHOW Him : MY SALVATION."
"The Truth of the LORD shall be thy SHIELD AND BUCKLER."
"I will TRIUMPH in the works OF THY HANDS! ... A brutish man knoweth not, neither doth a fool understand this."
"Now know that I the LORD SAVETH HIS ANOINTED : He will hear Him from his holy heaven WITH THE SAVING STRENGTH OF HIS RIGHT HAND."
"He asked LIFE of Thee and Thou gavest it Him ETERNALLY days
of LIFE. HIS GLORY IS GREAT IN THY SALVATION, HONOUR
AND MAJESTY HAST THOU LAID UPON HIM."
"The LORD is a Man of War : The Lord TRIUMPHED
GLORIOUSLY." The "LAMB WITHOUT A SPOT" is He!
Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands, saying:
Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?
"HE therefore who handed Me over to you the One-from-above, from everlasting."
"Through the mercy of the Most High HE SHALL NOT BE MOVED."
"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: FOR THOU ART WITH ME, THY rod and THY staff, they COMFORT Me."
BOL:
And yet, not ONE of the verses you quoted speaks to your fallacy that Jesus didn't bleed. He DID - and He DIED - and we were REDEEMED.
GE:
So you are saying Jesus did not lay down his life by the Power He had to take it up again with—THE SAME “POWER” THE OMNIPOTENCE OF THE OMNIPOTENT. If He died without this Power which He had to lay down his Life, Jesus had no Power to take his Life up again. If He died of blood loss, He died of weakness and in weakness, and He would have stayed in the grave forever.
BUT HIS LIFE WAS NOT IN HIS BLOOD BUT HIS BLOOD WAS IN HIS LIFE "offered to God", his LIFE WHICH HE LAID DOWN IN ORDER TO TAKE IT UP AGAIN IN THE POWER OF HIS SOUL "according to the LAW-OF-EVERLASTING-LIFE", not according to the law of blood sacrifices.
Christ "poured out his SOUL" and DIED, and, "the third day, ROSE", so that we are "much rather redeemed by his LIFE"—his Life which He both laid down and took up again WITH THE “POWER” He HAD : THE OMNIPOTENCE OF THE OMNIPOTENT.
So you, still have to quote ONE verse that speaks to your fallacy that Jesus bled. He did NOT, or we would not be redeemed, MORTAL blood being the blood of bleeding sacrifice, and INCAPABLE TO PAY FOR THE SINS OF SOULS.
"If Christ rose not from the dead, you would still be in your sins"... and irredeemably lost!
What drove everyone mad in That BONE-DAY Night of Yahweh was that they could not draw blood to disfigure the Glory of God in the face of Jesus, just like Israel could not look on for the glory of Jesus Christ reflected in Moses' face. May 24, 2018#218 That’s why I am not Catholic or Roman Catholic Christian; because it is all pagan blood-cult. And that is why I am of Reformed, Protestant Christian persuasion and Faith.
ByGrace:
THIS is the day the Lord has made. Let us be glad and rejoice in it!
GE:
This is the LIFE the Lord has earned, Exodus 15:1-22b morning and Exodus 14:13-31 evening. Therefore Deuteronomy 5:15; 6:23,24 Mark 2:25-28 John 5:17-31. Let us rejoice and be glad in it! 2Chronicles 23:18-21 2Kings 11:18-20.
ByGrace:
PS 96:11 "Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof. 12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice 13 Before the Lord: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth."
Lforrest:
Jesus still bled even when nails were put through his hands and feet, and the crown of thorns stuck on his head. And also the flogging, would have caused stripes. It would be unusual had he not bled, and that would be noted in the gospels.
GE:
Refer George Steward, https://www.worthychristianforums.c...nd-issac-pictures-of-the-resurrection-part-2/
Q~Gen 22:9 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built the altar there and laid the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood.
This is the Hebrew understanding of "Akeda" which is the "binding of Isaac" and its root comes from the Hebrew word, akod, which meant -- bound but it literally means "ringed" or "striped". One of the ancient scholars of Israel, Rashi, explained the use of the verb as "stripe-like marks" left by ropes on the ankles and wrists of a person who is tied hand and foot. Thus the reason for the word "akeda" for the naming of the story is named after the marks that were left on Issac's body! A perfect picture of the fact that Yeshua still had marks even after his resurrection. As Thomas only believed after reaching his hands into his side -- and his wrists -- a perfect picture even to the Hebraic understanding of word -- akeda. As Issac was laid on the wood -- so Yeshua was laid on the cross.~Q
GE:
Does ‘~Rashi explain the use of the verb … the Hebrew word "Akeda"..root word, akod … literally "ringed" or "striped" … as "stripe-like marks…"~’? ‘~… marks left by ropes on the ankles and wrists of a person who is tied hand and foot~’?
No, it is George Steward’s ‘explanation’ which is no explanation but his interpretation and ideas – preconceived ideas – inserted and added against every probability that marks – injured ‘marks’, resulted when “Abraham laid Isaac on the altar and on top of the wood : roped / bound” him".
Is it not “the wood” that was “roped” together in a heap whereon Isaac lied down? Says Steward himself, ‘~Issac by this age was strong enough to fight off his father Abraham who was well into his age -- yet Issac was willing to lay down his life -- just as Yeshua was willing to lay His life down for His Father.~’ Isaac would not resist to be roped fast, how would he sustain injury, ‘~marks~’ that ‘~still~’ would be left ‘~even after~’? What is the ‘~perfect picture to the Hebraic understanding~’ of the word ‘akeda’ which means “ropes”, not '~stripes~'? Isaiah 53:5 He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his ROPES we are healed”, because the Hebrew word ‘akeda’ / ‘akod’ refers to the “ropes” Jesus was bound, ‘~literally "ringed"~’, with, to the cross; not to imagined and indoctrinated ‘~bleeding caused by the whipping~’.
Enoch111:
GerhardEbersoehn said: ↑ NO drop of physical blood of Jesus the Christ was spilt. The claim is Roman Catholic bloody idolatry.
As others have already pointed out, your claim that Christ did not shed His blood for our redemption is TOTALLY FALSE and not according to Scripture. I'm not sure why you are trying to promote this false doctrine, but it undermines Gospel truth, and you should withdraw such nonsensical assertions.
There are dozens of Scripture which teach and confirm that there could be no remission of sins without the shedding of the blood of the Lamb of God, which washes away our sins and our guilt. I will quote just one Scripture, and that should be sufficient for you to withdraw you assertion: 1 PETER 1: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
GE:
There is no word in this Scripture my belief does not hold fast to unadulterated, literally as well as spiritually true. But you have to explain these words, "the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot". You cannot, unless with the worthless blood of Christ as of a lamb with blemish and with spot, which would be and in all Catholicism is, gross, heathen, pagan, godless, idolatry. Christ having "poured out his SOUL", "shed his blood" or did neither.
Enoch111:
There is nothing to explain. That statement is very clear and self-explanatory. Just as for every animal sacrificed under the Old Covenant, the blood had to be shed in order "to make atonement" for sins, so for Christ -- the ultimate Lamb of God -- His precious blood (having infinite value because He is God) had to be shed for our redemption.
May 29, 2018#226
GE:
Exactly; READ what it says: ".. as of .." "Christ, as of, a lamb". ".. as of .." is not <just as>. ".. as of .." etcetera is figurative, metaphorical, not literal. There is nothing further to explain. That statement is very clear and self-explanatory.
Enoch111:
If you resist this truth or you reject it, then you cannot possibly call yourself a Christian, since every true Christian is washed in the blood of the Lamb. And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood...(Rev 1:5).
GE:
'~clear and self-explanatory~' you say of the blood of Christ, '~nothing to explain~', YET you go straight on to 'explain', '~Just as for every animal sacrificed ... so for Christ~'.
You further explain, this time, much, infinitely, better, '~every true Christian is washed in the blood of the Lamb~'.
Now you see, there's what I believe. But that first explanation of yours, I don't believe. The two are diametrically contradicting, mutually excluding and destructive. "The blood of Jesus" is the only of its kind. 'It', cleanses every one of Jesus' redeemed from every sin of his or her.
Now you said it, cleansed and saved '~in the blood of the Lamb~'. Where is the blood 'in' which the redeemed is / are cleansed or washed? It is not in shed blood, but in his "poured out LIFE", in his "poured out SOUL". As I have used the Scripture many times, the same Scripture, but no one seems to care, "the life is in the blood" of animal, mortal, sacrifice, whereas "the blood" of '~the ultimate Lamb of God -- His precious blood (having infinite value because He is God) had to be shed for our redemption~' IN HIS LIFE, HIS SOUL, HIS INFINITE POWER HE (not man) WILLED to (not 'had to')
"shed" or "pour out", '~"to make atonement" for sins~'.
Eventually therefore, NO blood of an '~animal sacrificed under the Old Covenant had to be shed in order "to make atonement" for sins~'. In truth mortal blood had to be shed to show what transgression of the Law is, KILL God-given life!
But instead God in Christ "according to the Law of INDESTRUCTIBLE LIFE", "by the Sacrifice-of-Himself" unselfishly fulfilled the Law "God is Love".
In a word, the 'shedding of Jesus' blood' is HIS DIVINE LIFE AND LOVE, "HIS SOUL, POURED OUT" to make atonement and establish peace between God the Saviour and the saved.
Truth7:
He has given you God's word in 1 Peter 1:19
No explanation is needed, you can deny this all ya want.
100% Self Explanatory
1 PETER 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
GE:
WHO DENIES?
100% Self Explanatory, "ye were not redeemed with corruptible
things" like 'shedding blood' upon nothing or nobody but his own feet and face? Where's that blood? Gone, corrupted away! That's why you believe the RC bloody, bleeding, corruptible jesus in glass containers for preservation against elements like human touch? Or that's why you believe a SDA bleeding jesus in heaven shedding blood into oblivion for sins forgiven on his cross through his resurrection from the grave 2000 years ago "finished" / "perfected", "once for all" but blood so perishable ministered so abysmally it must be repeated continually? And when is it going to end?! He was crucified according to you and died, bleeding, and was raised "THIS SAME JESUS" still shedding his blood, and "THIS SAME JESUS" shall come again bleeding incorruptibly, unceasingly, incessantly "THIS SAME" dying bleeding, rising bleeding, in heaven bleeding returning bleeding Jesus? God save us from your blemished, wounded, lamb of god. “Vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers”!
GE:
"He shall judge with his Truth":
1) Jesus Christ "I AM THE TRUTH";
2) "There is one that seeketh and judgeth .. MY SAYING"; "he that rejecteth ME .. hath ONE that judgeth him: THE WORD I have spoken."
GE:
It's literal all the way or it's spiritual all the way. If the blood is literal, "washed us", is literal; if the blood is literal / real, the "lamb" is literal / real; if the blood is not spiritual but physical, the "shedding of blood" is not spiritual but physical. If his blood has infinite value because He is God, it was because He was and is the Lamb of God Our Passover. Not sinners mighty or weak men of the world, "shed his blood for our redemption"; his blood is "the blood of the Lamb", it "had to be shed in order "to make atonement" for sins", by Christ, not by the dust of the earth. He, the Lamb of God, had to be sacrificed under the New Covenant which is spiritual, not physical; is Divine, not human; is eternal, not repeatable or temporary; is "once" and "for all" IN CHRIST, not in or through or by mortal men.
Enoch111:
Not necessarily. Christ's blood was literally shed on the cross, but it is spiritually applied to the souls of the saints.
GE:
Necessarily! Christ's blood was not shed on the cross literally. That was why they crucified Him, called for him to be crucified SO THAT his blood could be on them and on their children! But they FAILED even with crucifixion. No blood spiritually or physically could be applied to the souls of the wicked.
BB:
Enoch111 said: ↑ As others have already pointed out, your claim that
Christ did not shed His blood for our redemption is TOTALLY FALSE and not according to Scripture. I'm not sure why you are trying to promote this false doctrine, but it undermines Gospel truth, and you should withdraw such nonsensical assertions.
5 years ago i might have said the same thing, but it is striking how little (zero) verses actually document any of this supposed blood, i mean not one verse along the lines of "Jesus was bleeding" there; the only place we find that is at "sweat was drops of blood."
no record of any apostles or followers--who did not flake off after the "drink, this is My Blood" discourse; meaning they grasped the significance of the Blood, right--making it a point to get some of this blood on them, or a cloth, nothing like that.
Enoch111 said: May 28, 2018#224 There are dozens of Scripture which teach and confirm that there could be no remission of sins without the shedding of the blood of the Lamb of God, which washes away our sins and our guilt. I will quote just one Scripture, and that should be sufficient for you to withdraw you assertion:
According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, yes
so i suggest that a little subterfuge is being used, a...talking a certain way around the children, there at your Quote. But since this surely comes across as like attempting to deny Christ or something, it can prolly only cause division to talk about it. But imo the assertion is valid, just maybe not in this venue ppl have expectations, and God comes to us where we are at.
The Son of Man had to be raised up like a Snake on a Pole in order to draw all men to Himself; and we must break up Nehushtan if we want to follow Christ.
bbyrd009:
"sweat was drops of blood."
GE:
"sweat LIKE drops of blood"
bbyrd009:
ok, good point i guess, its hematohydrosis either way right. Mostly
sweat though, ya. Sure looks like blood when it happens
GE:
Nothing medicinal in this; this is Biblical. It FELL LIKE drops of blood to the ground (would); not, it '~looks like blood when it happens~". It was not something that ever happened with anybody than Jesus. It was Divine and happened according to the eternal Council of the Almighty once for ever.
Enoch111 said:
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood...(Rev 1:5).
GE:
Like "washed" is spiritually, so is "blood" spiritually.
Be consistent, as the believer is spiritually OR physically "washed", so is Jesus' "blood" spiritual / metaphorical / figurative, OR, physical / actual / literal. And so, the believer! If Jesus' blood is the stuff in his veins literally shed or bled, then the person must be literally washed with, yea, in, his blood. Obnoxious thought, what condition for '~calling oneself a Christian~'!
Enoch111:
Now that you have been presented with Scriptures which show that Christ shed His blood for our redemption, you are simply trying to avoid believing that, by all this talk about literal and metaphorical. Which means that you do not really wish to believe the Word of God.
GE:
You show me ONE believer literally washed in the blood of Jesus, and I'll believe you Jesus literally bleeds and sinners are literally washed in his blood.
I have yet to be '~presented with Scripture which show [which READS] that Christ shed His blood~. To make it easier for you, rather than with the examples, start with Scripture and stop avoiding it, but
show, quote, place them, here.
BOL:
WHAT are you talking about??
WHY are you responding to a conversation that took place a YEAR ago??
I don't even remember the context of the conversation.
Refresh my memory . . .
GE:
God is Witness!
BOL:
Ummmm . . . aren't YOU the one who pointed out that Lev. 17:14 tells us that life is contained in the blood??
To pour out one's blood IS to pour our one's life, Einstein . . .
Pearl said:
Didn't he bleed real blood when the thorns were slammed onto his head? Didn't he bleed real blood when he was whipped and scourged? Didn't he bleed real blood when the nails were hammered in to his hands and feet? How did he not shed blood?
GE:
WHY DON’T he bleed!? WE WANT real blood! LET’S SLAM the thorns onto his head! HE WILL BLEED! WE will MAKE him BLEED! WE, WANT his BLOOD! HIS BLOOD UPON US! If the Romans can’t get his BLOOD, WE’LL show them HOW! Hit that darn crown! Slam those thorns! His blood! His BLOOD! Let’s DRINK, let’s get intoxicated… with his blood!
Doesn't he bleed, this animal? Can’t he bleed, this vegetable root out of dry ground? He doesn’t even look like a man, a human being; he has no beauty that we should look at him or see him for something other than this cursed, formless, BLOODLESS, inanimate wooden thing. Scourge him, put the wood to flame with fire from the gods!
Though real blood we LUSTED this purple robe must do; take off that drugget without spot or wrinkle or tear or flaw our scourging despite, it must be magical. And put back on his own clothes; we haven’t whipped him through it—who’d expect we couldn’t find blood to prove he’s not the God he claims he is. Then bring him out and parade him before the crowd so they can see for themselves!
This Whole Day Selfsame BONE-DRY Day “in The Day of the Wrath of the LORD”, NO BLOOD? “They shall not satisfy their souls neither fill their bowels BECAUSE THIS IS THE STUMBLINGBLOCK OF THEIR INIQUITY!”
Didn't He bleed real blood when the nails were hammered into his hands and feet? HOW, did He not shed, BLOOD? "Because it pleased the LORD!" Because He is The Almighty God CRUCIFIED WHO "IN IT TRIUMPHED!"
Christ "poured out his soul": "for the Almighty is the Health of My Countenance": "Thou upholdest Me in My Integrity." Psalms 40, 41, 42
BB:
Well, "for," but whatever. This is not easy stuff to see I guess, you have to lose your desires and your premises first maybe. Sounds like it's straight from hell though at first I guess huh.
Shouldn't Jesus' contemporary prophets or maybe even Apostles have been aware of the power of Jesus' literal blood, brought like buckets maybe? Mentioned it, maybe? I tell you that we get a total of one, ambiguous v for a good reason imo
Pearl:
So are you saying that if somebody drove a nail through your hand the resulting red stuff wouldn't be real blood but 'bodily fluids'? Forgive me if I've got it all wrong but I don't really understand your answer.
GE:
If that 'someone' is God Almighty from everlasting, there wouldn't be real blood or 'bodily fluids', but only his will, done.
BOL:
John 17:50 isn't talking about his being incarnated BEFORE he came to earth. This is YOUR perverse interpretation.
GE:
No; this is the BOL talking bollie of me, GE, who does not speak about <his being incarnated BEFORE he came to earth>! You're a perverse liar, BOL.
[QUOTE=""ByGrace", post: 517971, member: 4427"]
Behold what manner of man is this
Who stills the raging sea
He heals the sick, the lame, the halt
And makes the blind to see,
He opens all the prison doors
And sets the captives free.
Behold what manner of man is this
What manner of man is He?
CHORUS
He's the Lord of Glory
He is the great I Am
The Alpha and Omega
The beginning and the end
His name is Wonderful
The Prince of Peace is He
He's the everlasting Father
Throughout eternity.
Behold what manner of man is this
Who stands between God and man
His eyes are as a flame of fire
Seven stars are in His hand
John saw him in the seven churches
As the sun in brilliancy
Behold what manner of man is this,
What manner of man is He?
Behold what manner of man is this
Who healed the lame and halt
Who says "Thy sins be forgiven thee
Take up thy bed and walk"
He stands as the mighty healer now
And cries "Come unto me"
Behold what manner of man is this
What manner of man is He?
Behold what manner of man is this
Who sits on His heavenly throne
He rules and reigns from heaven above
His beloved and His own
He's the lion of the tribe of Judah
The root of David is He
Behold what manner of man is this
What manner of man is He?
...... Phyllis C Spiers ......[/QUOTE]
Willie T:
Lots of people love to deny the truth of this....
Did The Father Forsake Jesus On The Cross? No!
by Steve McVey
For many years I taught the seven sayings of the cross and when I came to the words of Jesus, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" I used the text as evidence that the Father had turned His back on His own Son when Jesus was on the cross. "The Bible is clear that God cannot look upon sin!" I would boldly proclaim. It seemed reasonable to me that God turned away from Jesus. After all, isn't that what Jesus said?
The answer is, "No, that is not what He said. That is what He asked. There's a big difference between making an assertion and asking a question."
"Do you mean Jesus was wrong?" you might ask. My answer is that it was Jesus, the Man who became sin for us. When he absorbed the darkness and weight of the sin of the world into Himself, He had the sense of abandonment by God the Father that sin always brings. Blinded by sin and horrified by its effect on and in Him, the man Jesus cried out of His humanity, "Why have you forsaken me?" In that moment, He identified Himself with every person who has ever felt abandoned by God. He became one who felt isolated, lonely, abandoned, forsaken and hopeless on behalf of you, me, and everybody who would ever feel that way.
The question Jesus spoke was a direct quote from the prophetic Psalm 22, where in the very first verse the psalmist asks, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" It is noteworthy that this is the only time Jesus ever called His Father "God" and not "Father." In that moment,the man Jesus felt forsaken. Having become sin for us, He could not feel or sense or see His Father's embrace at that moment.
The gospels don't record an answer to His question, but Psalm 22 does. In response to the first verse where the psalmist cries out the prophetic words, "Why have you forsaken me?" there is an answer in verse 24. Here's the answer to the question of Jesus, the question of the psalmist and the question of every person who has ever felt abandoned by the Father: For he (God the Father) has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.
Sin may deafen our ears to the answer, but the reality is that the Father has never and will never despise, disdain or turn His face away from us, forsaking us. He has heard our cry for help!
God the Father forsaking His own Son? Impossible! God the Father was "in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself!" (2 Corinthians 5:19) Jesus didn't feel it at the time. It seemed like the Father had forsaken Him, but He hadn't! Nor will He ever forsake you.
But what about the "God cannot look upon sin" part? Doesn't the Bible say that? Well, it does but we need to put that comment in context. It was Habakkuk the prophet who said that as he watched evil people seemingly getting away with their sins. Here's the whole quote in context:
Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong. Why then do you tolerate the treacherous? Why are you silent while the wicked swallow up those more righteous than themselves? Habakkuk 1:13
To paraphrase him, Habakkuk said, "Your eyes are too pure to look on evil and you can't tolerate wrong so why are you?" In other words, it made no sense to Habakkuk that God was looking on sin when Habakkuk believed that wasn't possible. He was smearing the face of God with the guilt and shame of humanity the same way Adam had done when he hid himself in the Garden of Eden because He thought God wouldn't want to look at him after he sinned. Adam was wrong. God came for His walk that day just as He had every day. And Habakkuk was wrong too.
The fact is that God can look upon sin. Some people act as if the relationship of God the Father to sin is like Superman's aversion to kryptonite. They act as if God is afraid of sin, but nothing could be further from the truth. In Christ Jesus, sin has been destroyed - finished- end of story. (See Daniel 9:24) Through the finished work of the cross, sin has been defeated! God hates sin because of what it does to us, not because it does anything to Him.
So, on the cross Jesus took the sin of the world upon Himself. As a man who became sin for us (so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him), He felt forsaken, but He was not. The Father did hear His cry and, as the empty tomb three days later proves, did not forsake Him. The question of Jesus the man was: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" The answer from God the Father was: "I haven't! I've not despised, disdained nor forsaken you. I'm here with you, in this moment, carrying you through this death to the glorious resurrection on the other side."
That was true for Jesus when he felt forsaken and it's true for you when you feel that way too.
Grace:
Ps 139 12 "Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb."
Stranger:
I believe Jesus Christ was forsaken for a time on the Cross. That God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, yes. But it was God the Son on the Cross. The Father and Son certainly maintained a relationship during the Sons stay on earth as Jesus Christ. But, once the sin of the world was laid upon the Son, the Father must move away. It is the Son alone who is the sin bearer.
Jesus Christ was never mistaken or wrong in what He said. He asked 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me' because He knew He had been forsaken. This was a break in the relationship that had always existed throughout eternity. And He felt it. The Son was hanging there alone as a guilty Man. This was what Christ drew back from in the garden when He said, "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:". (Lu. 22:42)
This does not affect God's omnipresence. It is just that presence that the Son and Father always had was broken. But of course this was restored before Christ died. (Lu. 23:46) "...Father into thy hands I commend my spirit: "
Suneses:
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
I agree with ya'll ....God did not forsake Jesus ....sometimes we do ...but not God.
Consider the following scripture:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
The word "one" hen neuter, means “one in purpose”
How could they be one in purpose….. and have God forsake Him on the cross.
II Corinthians 5:19a To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself…
How could God be in Christ and forsake him?
John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me
Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels
God would give Jesus more than 72,000 angles…. At any point Jesus could have walked away with a massive amount of spiritual body guards.
So how do we reconcile these scriptures with Matthew 27:46… it would appear to be a contradiction of terms.
It has been said that God hated sin so much that he had to turn away during the final moments of His only begotten sons life…..I don't think so.
One of the principles of biblical research is when you have several clear verses, and one that seemingly contradicts those clear then it is either in our understanding, or in translation…..In this case it is translation.
The words Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani are Aramaic, that is the language Jesus spoke
There is no such Aramaic word as lama however there is a word lmna which is a declaration as in “for this reason” or “for this purpose”
The word sabachthani comes from the root word shbk which means “to spare, or to keep, to leave, or reserve”.
(The word remaining in the following verses have all been translated from shbk II Kings 10:11, Deuteronomy 3:3, Joshua 10:33)
Literally this should read Eli, Eli, lmna sabachthani that is to say, “My God, My God, for this reason, or for this purpose was I reserved, or spared”.
For this purpose Christ came into this world, the purpose of redemption…
Now that would be an interesting study if we left it there…but let’s put some icing on the cake.
**From the Peshitta {Aramaic text} this reads Eli, Eli, lemana shabakthani “My God, My God, for this I was spared or this was my destiny”.
**Another interesting fact: all eastern Bibles have “for this purpose I was spared” while the Occidental translations read “why hast thou forsaken me.
Could this be where fake news originated?......just saying
Suneses:
My comment about fake news was tongue-in-cheek in reference to the last statement I made, which was: **Another interesting fact: all Eastern Bibles have “for this purpose I was spared” while the Occidental translations read “why hast thou forsaken me.
But…… Your rebuttal of my post is exactly what fake news is about… making stuff up that I never said…or implied.
Stranger:
Ah...that sounds so sweet. "God did not forsake Jesus... sometimes we do...but not God". Too bad it is such a lie. That is what the serpent said also. (Gen. 3:4) "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" Surely the Father would not allow Jesus to die, just because He was the substitute for us? Well, if Jesus did not die, then our sins are not paid for.
Do you think that only physical death is the payment for sin? Death involves body, soul, and spirit. Death is separation. Spiritual death is separation of the spirit from God. That spiritual death must be endured else the payment is no good. With Christ who was the Son, that spiritual death meant the separation of the Father from the God/Man, Jesus Christ, Who now became sin for us. This is what Jesus recoiled at in the Garden. The physical death, as bad as it was, did not touch the spiritual death Christ must endure.
Jesus Christ was not being judged by Rome as a criminal. He was being judged by God as Sin.
The fake news is what you are attempting to present. The lie of the serpent. 'Thou shalt not surely die." Sounds good though and many here will jump at it. It fits the old hen theology of love, love, love. God just loved Jesus so much He would never forsake Him. Nausea.
GE:
You're clueless, Stranger. You missed the dart board, what any spot on it. What Jesus suffered—THE DEATH OF DEATH—, suffered He ALIVE, WILLING, OBEDIENT BEFORE AND PLEASING TO THE FATHER; indeed, suffered He WITH the Father AS the Father, IN the Father and suffered the Father, IN HIM!
GE:
That '~God did not forsake Jesus...sometimes we do...but not God~' - Suneses #12, is no '~lie~'. Nor is what he wrote and said, '~that what the serpent said also~'. That is a lie! Also Suneses did not say '~Jesus did not die~'! That also is a lie, YOUR lie!
Death is not '~separation~'. Please show us where you read that in our Bible. "Death is the wages of / for sin" - our sin. God made Jesus pay the wages for our sin; and more, He paid, redeemed, bought back our lost life without sin and therefore our life without separation from God. Sin is separation and Jesus, it is written, "knew no sin", that is, Jesus was never separated from the Father or for no moment lived outside the "FULL FELLOWSHIP OF THE TRINITY" [Klaas Schilder] GOD THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Christ’s death meant the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit AS ONE SUFFERED for us and for our sin, TO, AS ONE IDENTIFYING WITH US in Jesus Christ, BE "MADE sin for us". There is no sin than our sin. Your statement '~the God/Man, Jesus Christ ... now became sin for us~', is a perverse and perverting mutilation of the Scripture.
So, your statement, '~This .. sin .. is what Jesus recoiled at in the Garden~' is a perverse and perverting mutilation of the Scripture. Because, if you were right, doing God's WILL was '~what Jesus recoiled at in the Garden~' as were God's WILL, '~sin~'! But Jesus '~recoiled~' at NOT "to DO Thy WILL o God"-- most, in the Garden.
There's no such thing as '~The physical death...~', which '~...did not touch the spiritual death~' Jesus endured. Jesus died the death of death in every respect perceivable and not perceivable for sinners.
'~Jesus Christ was not being judged by Rome as a criminal. He was being judged by God as Sin~'. . . incomprehensible to me, so, I'll keep quiet. . . except, Jesus Christ - unjustly - was in fact judged by Rome and Jerusalem and the whole world as a criminal, the fake news being what you are attempting to present, '~Jesus Christ was not being judged by Rome as a criminal~'; and probably also, that '~He was being judged by God as Sin~' For you, the TRUTH that God just loved Jesus so much He would never forsake Him, may be nauseating and the lie of the serpent. God forbid for me!
GE:
Psalm 22:1, 24 "For the LORD hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of The Afflicted, neither hath He HID HIS FACE FROM HIM, but when He cried to Him, He heard."
[Exodus 12:3,5 Ezekiel 39:29; 40:1b,4 Exodus 10,12,14 John12:27,28; 17:1,4,5 Psalm139:12,15,16]
Mark 15:34,35 [Exodus12:3:5 Mark7:32-35]
καὶ τῇ ἐνάτῃ ὥρᾳ ἐβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ
At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Ἐλωῒ Ἐλωῒ λαμὰ σαβαχθανεί;
ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον
which is, being interpreted,
Ὁ Θεός μου ὁ Θεός μου,
My God, my God,
εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με;
separated You Me unto this? / put You Me behind the veil for this?
Jesus' perception of the reality was that his Father did not forsake Him, but that He sanctified / separated / "set Him apart unto it" -- unto THIS which happened AS He was SPEAKING TO and was GIVING his spirit INTO THE HANDS OF HIS FATHER, there, present as "The Presence of the LORD" Himself on the cross dying the death of death!
'Kept' // 'hallowed' // "within the veil", The Most Holy One of God "His Name The Most Holy Place" Isaiah 57:15.
“Father, in thy hands I commend My Spirit!” Who tore the veil of the earthly tabernacle open and Covered Jesus where on the cross He Suffered Dying the Death of death, even entered holy sepulchre God's Shekinah, that neither in Suffering "NOR IN DEATH, HIS FLESH CORRUPTION SAW".
Matthew 19:1; 27-30
27 Τότε ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Πέτρος εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ἰδοὺ ἡμεῖς ἀφήκαμεν πάντα
Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all,
29 καὶ πᾶς ὅστις ἀφῆκεν οἰκίας ἢ ἀδελφοὺς ἢ ἀδελφὰς ἢ πατέρα
every one that hath forsaken houses or brethren or sisters or father,
Mark 15:34,35 [Eks12:3:5 Mk7:32-35]
Ὁ Θεός μου ὁ Θεός μου, εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με;
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken KJV me?
Matthew 27:46,47
Θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἵνα τί με ἐγκατέλιπες;
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken KJV me?
Luke 23:44,45
τοῦ ἡλίου ἐκλιπόντος, ἐσχίσθη δὲ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ μέσον.
And the sun was darkened and the veil of the temple was rent in the middle.
Matthew 27:51a
Καὶ ἰδοὺ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη ἀπ’ ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω εἰς δύο,
And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom
Mark 15:38
Καὶ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη εἰς δύο ἀπ’ ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω.
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
In the Gospels ἀφίμι is the word in context for ‘to forsake’; while the word ἐγκατέλιπες from ἐγκαταλείπω is the word in context for “choose / sanctify / separate / hide / veil”, in the Most Holy Place on the Altar of Christ’s Passover of Yahweh Suffering in Full Fellowship of Father, Son, and, Holy Spirit. [Klaas Schilder: "...in full Fellowship of the Trinity"] : the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Conclusion:
KJV with 'forsaken' for ἐγκατέλιπες is wrong!
Father, in thy hands My Spirit I commend!
O Spirit Who of tabernacle of the FLESH
From above Lintel and VEIL tore Apart
And Covered on the cross Him, Who,
o Death, your death, Suffered Dying, Who
Entered holy sepulchre, o Father, Spirit, that
NEITHER IN SUFFERING NOR IN DEATH
the FLESH of your Beloved Son
CORRUPTION SAW
LF:
I'm surpized no one has mentioned. Galatians 3:13
I have understood this or rather the part of it from the law as God the Father making a commitment to himself that he will curse anyone, even his son, if they are hung from a pole.
When Jesus cried out it was due to the separation he felt. He likely never felt anything like it, always hearing from his Father.
APAK:
(Rev 1:4) John to the seven churches that are in Asia. Grace to you and peace, from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits that are before His throne.
(Rev 1:5) And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him that loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood, (Rev 1:8) I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to
come, the Almighty. (ALL NEV)
Verse 4 is God Almighty. Verse 5 is about Jesus Christ, and Verse 8 is also about God Almighty.
(Rev 4:8) And the four living creatures each had six wings, full of eyes round about and within; and they have no rest day and night, saying: Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.(NEV)
This is God Almighty
(Act 7:9) And the patriarchs, moved with jealousy against Joseph, sold him into Egypt; but God was with him,(NEV)
This is God Almighty
(Exo 33:14) He said, My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.
(Exo 33:15) He said to Him, If Your presence doesn’t go with me, don’t carry us up from here.(ALL NEV)
This is God Almighty
(Luk 1:76) Yes, and you, child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High. For you shall go before the presence of the Lord to make ready His ways,(NEV)
This John the Baptist
(Mat 1:23) The virgin shall be with child and shall give birth to a son; and they shall call his name Immanuel, which means God with us. (NEV)
God spirit was with us Immanuel, in His son, as 2 Cor. 5:19 indicates: “That God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.”
It is important to read exactly what was written: God was in Christ, not God was Christ.
Are we to believe then that Elijah was “God Jehovah,” or that Bithiah, a daughter of Pharaoh, was the sister of Jesus because her name is “daughter of Jehovah?”
God was in Jesus at his birth and then more powerfully after his baptism as the Christ to the cross, and involved in his resurrection.
As the Son of God and as the image of God, God is with us in Jesus, but the name does not make Jesus God.
(Deu 31:23) He commissioned Joshua the son of Nun and said, Be strong and courageous, for you shall bring the children of Israel into
the land which I swore to them, and I will be with you. (NEV)
This Joshua the son of Nun
(Eph 1:19) and what the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to that working of the strength of His might
(Eph 1:20) which He wrought in Christ, when He raised him from the dead and had him sit at His right hand in heaven, (ALL NEV)
This is the power of the Almighty God in action, within Jesus, the son of God. Or can be expanded to say it is God’s spirit in action who is also the Father of Jesus and believers. There is no Jesus is action here. The son was the recipient of this action by his Father.
Can you explain what you mean by the son performed in Ephesians 1:19-20? What did he do/action?
(Jer 51:19) The portion of Jacob is not like these; for He is the former of all things; and Jacob is the tribe of His inheritance: Yahweh of Armies is His name.
(Jer 51:20) You are my battle axe and weapons of war: and with you will I break in pieces the nations; and with you will I destroy kingdoms;(NEV)
Israel is the battle axe of God. What does this have to do with the son of God?
(Mat 28:18) And Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying: All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.(NEV)
You bet Jesus was given the power of God (within him) and authority to use it. He would commence when he ascended to heaven with immortality from God.
(Rom 1:3)" concerning His Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, "
(Rom 1:4)" who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord, " (ALL NEV)
Yes, Jesus born as a human being was given the power of his Father ,and now because of his resurrection from the dead he is called our Lord.
(Luk 1:20) And you shall be dumb and not able to speak until the day that these things shall come to pass, because you did not believe my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season. (NEV)
The angel is speaking as a representative of God. Why did you
present Luke 1:20, for what? What has to do with the son of God.
(Psa 65:1) Praise waits for You, God, in Zion. To You shall vows be performed.
This is about God Almighty, nothing to do with Jesus.
(Joh 10:30) I and the Father are one.(NEV)
Short version: Jesus and his Father worked together in one purpose as
his Father’s spirit in power was dwelling inside Jesus, the human being. This is not any hypostasis theory happening here, or dual nature in effect. It is only Jesus with only one possible nature – human nature.
I think I’ll stop here. I could answer or explain the rest of the verses you pose, although I get a little tired of doing all the explaining and homework for everyone with the same amount of effort done in return.
If you really believe in the trinity model you would do more that just throw out a bunch of misused verses for your defense. I reckon you really do not have one because you cannot explain your view in any clarity.
Nevertheless, I at least responded to your post.
Enoch111:
How so? If Jesus is not God, He could not possibly be the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world. While He was born a sinless Man, He is fully God, as we see here (Isa 9:6): For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Thus we read in Acts 20:28: Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. There is only one who shed His blood and is also God. Jesus.
Stranger:
When Adam sinned he immediately died. (Gen. 2:17) "...in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." His spirit was separated from God. His body began dying, and would completely die 930 years later. (Gen. 5:5)
GE:
"...in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." He did eat the fruit of sin, that is death, all the days of his life. When Adam sinned he immediately died in Christ. Genesis 1:28c; 2:21; 3:8, 9, 15, 16, 21, 24=2:2,3
Stranger:
No. When Adam sinned he didn't die in Christ. You are very confused.
Sunday at 7:14 AM#127
GE:
Adam's spirit --"the breath of (his, human) life" 2:7-- was neither separated from God nor from himself until the very day that "he - Adam..." --not only <his body>-- 930 years later "...died" Genesis 5:5, and Adam's body would return to dust and his spirit --"the breath of (his, human) life"-- to God.
Adam was nearer to God in death than in life!
And so was Jesus in the very day He died The Crucified : “King” and God The Redeemer of his People .. in the Full Fellowship of the Trinity the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. More absolute Jesus' Death and Triumph in Death over death could not be. Therefore God had to "Raise Christ from the dead Exalting Him and Resting Him His Heavenly Majesty at his own right hand and Give Him to the Church as Head".
Stranger:
Death is separation from God. Spiritual death is spiritual separation from God. (Is. 59:2) "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God,and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."
When Adam sinned he immediately died. (Gen. 2:17) "...in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." His spirit was separated from God. His body began dying, and would completely die 930 years later. (Gen. 5:5)
(Eph. 2:1) "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:5) "Even when we were dead in sins,hath quickened us together with Christ,...."
Being quickened means given new life. Being born-again. But this new-birth involves the spirit only. Thus your spirit is born again but your body is still dying. If one is born-again, their spirit is born-again and they are assured of the redemption of their body at the resurrection. If one is not born-again their spirit remains separated from God and when their body dies they enter eternity separated from God forever.
Concerning your accusation that Christ being sin for us is a mutilation of Scripture, see (2 Cor. 5:21) "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;....)
Jesus had to experience both physical and spiritual death. Which He did. Which is why He cried out, 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me'.
If Jesus Christ were not being judged by God for Sin, then you are still in your sins.
GE:
If separation from God were death --your misconception, mark!-- how is God here speaking to THE LIVING?! Jun 13, 2018#16 '~your iniquities~' - Jesus knew no iniquities and had, no, iniquities! He knew no sin and had, no, sin! Jesus had no sins which "hid God's face from Him, that He would not hear". Nothing could separate God from Christ not even death or grave, yea, nothing could separate God from Christ—NOT EVEN FROM HIS BODY in Life or Death!
Therefore Death did not separate Jesus from his Father or from the Holy Spirit of God. “Him .. Jesus of Nazareth .. delivered according to the determinate Councel and foreknowledge of God .. ye have crucified and slain with wicked hands .. Him hath God raised. Concerning Him, spake David:- I foresaw the LORD always before My Face for He is always on My Right Hand.” This is written of the Son as well as of the Father “because Thou wilt not leave My Soul in hell”—the “hell” of the whole of the Suffering of Jesus in Dying the death of Death the wages of sin for us. “Neither wilt Thou suffer / allow Thine Holy One to see corruption” in any of that wherein God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit IN FULL FELLOWSHIP OF ONE ANOTHER, made atonement and redeemed us. Death separates us from God, but not God from Christ. Jesus pulled down the partition between us and between us and God, so we have to fear nothing because “nothing can separate us from the love of God” through Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.
Therefore though sin and death do separate us from God, to say that
‘~Death is separation from God~’, is not true:- “For I am persuaded that NEITHER DEATH nor life nor angels nor principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come nor height (into heaven) nor depth (into hell) nor any other creature shall be able to separate us (or Jesus) from the love of God WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS our Lord!”
Stranger:
I said what (2 Cor. 5:21) said. " For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;" Christ became sin on the Cross and was judged by God. Thus He was forsaken by God when the Sin of the world was laid upon Him.
GE:
You wrote, <~the separation of the Father from the God/Man, Jesus Christ, Who now became sin for us. This is what Jesus recoiled at in the Garden.~>
You did NOT write or say <~what (2 Cor. 5:21) said. "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin"~> NOTE: from which will of God Jesus never <recoiled from>, but ONE WITH THE FATHER WILLED AND WROUGHT!
Yesterday at 11:28 PM#135
Stranger:
Christ became sin. Christ said why hast thou forsaken me. I have said what Scripture says.
GE:
You said what you wrote and here REPEAT: <~Christ became sin...~>. The problem is with you, that you are unable to see the difference between what you say and what Scripture says.
God "made Him sin for us" and judged Him as having been "made sin for us" by God; not as one who <~became sin~> incarnate inherent in the Person of the Son of God, which would be blasphemy and would make Jesus the personification of sin which the devil is.
Jun 13, 2018#22 You did not in post #13 say what 2 Corinthians 5:21 says. " For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;". Here are your words there, '~Christ, Who now became sin for us~'.
Jesus Christ was not '~being judged by God for Sin~', his! And THEREFORE was NOT '~forsaken by God when the Sin of the world was laid upon Him~".
But God "VEILED" Him "in the flesh", "in the Most Holy Place" "under his wings", "in the shadow of the Almighty", as He "went through the Valley of Death" SUFFERING AND DYING THE DEATH OF DEATH WITH EAGERNESS and URGENCY, "Not My Will but THY WILL, BE DONE!"
He not '~recoiled~' from it, but Jesus prayed his Father, "BRING ON, PASS ME THIS CUP ... that I may EAT this passover I DESIRED TO EAT, yet not My Will, but THY WILL, BE DONE!"
Jun 13, 2018#23 Jesus had one will, one desire, one faith, one aim and purpose, one hope of glory, his Father's Will obeyed and honoured!
Stranger:
That is right. Christ became sin for us. "For he hath made him to be sin for us" (2 Cor. 5:21) I don't see the problem here.
GE:
Obvious. But I do.
We discuss HOW Jesus RECEIVED the Father's Will or Doing. You say, '~Jesus did not go eagerly. ... He recoiled at that which He knew He must endure~' which is directly against and opposite of '~He went faithfully, and soberly~'. Without any 'but' or, 'must'!
So, which one of YOUR 'pictures' is the false one? Since you posed only one self-contradicting statement, YOU '~present a false picture of Jesus going to the cross~'.
Stranger:
I didn't say Jesus Christ ever sinned. I said, that He became sin for us. Just as (2 Cor. 5:21) says.
All judgement against sin was leveled at Jesus Christ. He was being judged by God as guilty of all sin. Thus He had to die, physically and spiritually. Which is why He cried out, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me". Because for a time He was forsaken. That is the result of spiritual death. Separation from God.
Jesus did not go eagerly. He went faithfully, and soberly. But He recoiled at that which He knew He must endure. You present a false picture of Jesus going to the cross.
Stranger:
The sins you and I commit are the product of being born with the disease of Sin. That Sin was past down from Adam. Jesus paid the price for Sin, which covered all sins everyone will commit.
Jun 14, 2018#32 Well, just pretend that (2 Cor. 5:21) is not the Word of God. It is just a mans error. Get your marker and blot it out.
I did not present a false picture. I presented the real picture which was in contrast to what you presented.
(Luke 22:39-44) "And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down and prayed, Saying, Father if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
GE:
You understand these words as most people do because they have not yet thought outside the groove which the Church has cut out for them to stay thinking in.
Jesus because He "strongly desired" to drink it prayed his Father to "remove this cup IF You WILLED". He placed the Father's Will before his own, "Not MY Will, but YOUR Will be done!" Jesus PRAYED, knowing full well that his Father's Will was One with his own Will and in no respect or minuscule differed. Jesus meant, "I delight to do YOUR Will", THEREFORE, "Not My Will, but YOUR Will, My Father, BE!" Only a Will in full and perfect agreement and harmony and with singleness of Purpose, can pray, "Not My Will but YOUR Will be done!"
Christ dreaded nor recoiled, but "PRAYED" that his Father's Will must be done and was done. His Father's Will was Jesus' Will yet He gave his Father's Will ALL CREDIT AND HOMAGE AND HONOUR AND GLORY: "Not My Will, but Your Will BE!" "IF THOU BE WILLING, remove this cup from Me", but you know, My Father, what My Will is; IT IS YOUR WILL!
'parenengke', 'parapheroh' - 'para' + 'pheroh', 'remove' x 1 Luke 22:41 "take away" x 1 Mark 14:36
'para' - "by" / "with" / "trans-" - "-pass"
'pheroh' - "bring" x 33; "reach" / "reach hither" / "come" / "rush"- not once in KJ rendered 'remove' or 'take away'.
Therefore, "Bring on! Pass me the Cup!", not, "Remove" it from Me.
Willie T:
Might be one more place where our "translators" misdirected our thinking?
GE:
I didn't say that, but explained how even "remove" or "take away" should be understood as were it the Father's Will, Jesus still wanted his Father's Will be HIS OWN WILL AND OBEDIENCE.
I'm sorry that I am unable to do better; but Jesus was not 'recoiling' or whatever from drinking the Cup or DO HIS FATHER'S WILL, forever NOT as FOREVER NOT the Father 'forsook' his Son!
Willie T:
I think you explained it excellently. Our translators actually DID deliberately write it so that English speakers would assume that Jesus became scared and wanted to get out of doing the very thing He same to Earth to do. I fully believe that God NEVER turned His back on Jesus...… not even for a moment.
GE:
God be with you and bless you
Stranger:
So, just blot it out of Scripture as it goes against what you believe.
You will get great approval here.
Willie T:
No, you do something you may not be used to doing... you find out
the actual facts of the original meaning.
Stranger:
You're no different than the Romanists who have added to the Scripture with their apocrypha and tradition.
GE:
Adding to Scripture with apocrypha and tradition is not the only way. In fact it only proves the far more successful way to add to Scripture MEANINGS FOREIGN TO ITS TRUTH through (incidental) incorrect and even (deliberate) false translation of Scripture itself!
Nancy:
Yes Stranger, I agree. I also agree (with an earlier post of yours) that Jesus experienced far more than just physical pain, the separation from the Father and Holy Spirit had (IMHO) to be the reason, and not the physical torture He knew was coming for the "His sweat as it were... drops of blood" in Gethsemane while praying so fervently...He knew He would, for the 1st time ever, be separated from the Father.
Stranger:
"And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. "
(Matt. 26:36-38) "Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me."
(Heb. 5:7) "Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death and was heard in that he feared."
Jesus Christ went to the Cross faithfully and soberly, but with much dread. Not 'eagerly' as you want to present. I believe that in Jesus whole life here on this earth, He dreaded that day and it was always on His mind.
GE:
Thank you and my apology; I much better appreciate this post. Jesus dreaded --yes He "dreaded / suffered anxiety even unto death", you are right. But He never <recoiled> from that which He <dreaded>. The more Jesus <dreaded>, the more "DESIRED" He "to eat" the bread of sorrow and entreated He the Father to let Him empty the cup of His Eternal Purpose and Design. That Christ 'dreaded', and that He "greatly desired" / was "eager" to do Thy Will, o God, are complementary truths, not exclusive contradictions.
Stranger:
I believe Jesus Christ was forsaken for a time on the Cross. That God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, yes. But it was God the Son on the Cross. The Father and Son certainly maintained a relationship during the Sons stay on earth as Jesus Christ. But, once the sin of the world was laid upon the Son, the Father must move away. It is the Son alone who is the sin bearer.
Jesus Christ was never mistaken or wrong in what He said. He asked 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me' because He knew He had been forsaken. This was a break in the relationship that had always existed throughout eternity. And He felt it. The Son was hanging there alone as a guilty Man. This was what Christ drew back from in the garden when He said, "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:". (Lu. 22:42)
This does not affect God's omnipresence. It is just that presence that the Son and Father always had was broken. But of course this was restored before Christ died. (Lu. 23:46) "...Father into thy hands I commend my spirit: "
Brakelite:
I don't find myself in agreement with you (Stranger) that often, and there is a small detail here I could debate, but overall, I agree with the above, and subsequent post further down. If Jesus wasn't fully and completely separated from His Father, that is fully and completely die just as the sinner must die and experience that same separation if he refuses the mercy of God offered through the blood of Christ, if the Son was not a full propitiation, taking all the penalty, paying the full ransom, then we are still miserably and utterly lost.
GE:
To <die just as the sinner> dies and be <a full propitiation .. paying the full ransom>, is impossible for anyone just a sinner. Only One Fully God can pay the full ransom the full propitiation for the <miserably and utterly lost>. Not so?
You agree?
Then how could Jesus be the <full propitiation> or <pay the full ransom> if He was not nor died The Only One Fully God IN THE FULL FELLOWSHIP OF GOD TRI-UNE the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit? How could Jesus who did the dying and paying with his own Life not be Fully God Offering Himself the Sacrifice for <full propitiation .. the full ransom> for our lost and sold under sin souls?! Jesus DIED fully God in Full Fellowship of Father Son and Holy Spirit or an impostor, someone just a sinner like all of us, faked our atonement with : GOD!
GE:
Nancy said: ↑<the physical torture He knew was coming for the "His sweat as it were... drops of blood" in Gethsemane>
Luke 22:44 "being in agony" = Mark 14:34 "my SOUL is exceedingly sorrowful unto death" = Matthew 26:37, "He began to be sorrowful and very heavy ... my SOUL is exceeding sorrowful even unto death".
The CAUSE of his "sweat" was not '~physical torture~' by man, but the intense and acute Divine awareness and abhorrence of his "SOUL" for the sins, of man. Matthew 26:
38 Περίλυπός ἐστιν ἡ ψυχή μου ἕως θανάτου
My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death
προσευχόμενος καὶ λέγων Πάτερ μου, εἰ δυνατόν ἐστιν,
and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible,
παρελθάτω (παρελθέτω) ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ τὸ ποτήριον τοῦτο·
let this cup come by me / at me pass.
πλὴν οὐχ ὡς ἐγὼ θέλω ἀλλ’ ὡς σύ.
nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Re:
παρελθάτω (παρελθέτω) ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ τὸ ποτήριον τοῦτο·
let this cup come by me / at me pass.
‘Apo’ – has more than just the meaning of ‘Direction’, ‘from’.
As in this place, ‘I’, Jesus, is the Reason Why He prays his Father to “let this cup come by me” or “let this cup pass / be passed at me”.
In other words, Jesus prayed, “Bring this cup on FOR Me”, or, “for My sake”, or, “ON ACCOUNT OF Me”.
Actually, because “the cup” is metaphorical, spiritual, metaphysical, it does not have the meaning of ‘from’ as for ‘direction’, '~away from me~', at all!
Nancy: GerhardEbersoehn said: "The CAUSE of his "sweat" was not '~physical torture~' by man, but the intense and acute Divine awareness and abhorrence of his "SOUL" for the sins, of man."
This is what I wrote- "Jesus experienced far more than just physical pain, the separation from the Father and Holy Spirit had (IMHO) to be the reason, and not the physical torture He knew was coming..."
So, I never said the cause of His sweat was due to physical torture...pretty much the opposite, I KNOW He was not afraid of what man could do to Him.
Have a nice day.
GE:
How good then, that we actually agree and say the same thing. Point is, "his flesh saw no corruption in death", OR, in DYING death. '~Recoiled~" Jesus for the blink of an eye, his sweat would have been as were it caused by and the result of '~physical torture~' by man.
Have a day heavy laden with thoughts on these things.
GE:
Thank you indeed. I did not feel comfortable with my post, I must say, maybe I was sleepy or tired, I cannot remember. No excuses though. But I just saw where I sort of lost track. I should not have said, "The CAUSE of his "sweat" was not '~physical torture~' by man, but the intense and acute Divine awareness and abhorrence of his "SOUL" for the sins, of man."
“…was not '~physical torture~' by man~--, there’s my fault!
I should have written, "The CAUSE of his "sweat" was not '~separation from God~' by God, but the intense and acute Divine awareness and abhorrence of his "SOUL" for the sins, of man." Virtually the opposite of what I wrote!
So thank you; I herewith do the necessary improvement.
Nancy:
I kind of thought it was just a miss-interp. We all do it...I even sometimes reply to the wrong post as well.
It's not a thing...go get some sleep, lol! ♥
GE:
Here is your post I referred to
Nancy wrote in post Jun 15, 2018#44
Yes Stranger, I agree. I also agree (with an earlier post of yours) that Jesus experienced far more than just physical pain, the separation from the Father and Holy Spirit had (IMHO) to be the reason, and not the physical torture He knew was coming for the "His sweat as it were... drops of blood" in Gethsemane while praying so fervently...He knew He would, for the 1st time ever, be separated from the Father. Just MHO.
-nancy
But as you are saying, It's not a thing...go get some sleep; because this was my reply on this post of yours, Nancy, Jun 15, 2018#54 GE:
How good then, that we actually agree and say the same thing. Point
is, "his flesh saw no corruption in death", OR, in DYING death. '~Recoiled~" Jesus for the blink of an eye, his sweat would have been as were it caused by and the result of '~physical torture~' by man.
Lforrest:
Jesus still shows us the scars on his hands,
GE:
Not scars or (open) wounds, but inconspicuous "prints" like marks or folds properly noticeable only if one actually reached and felt it, John 20:25,27.
I have not seen one commentator who noticed Jesus' Divine Omniscience revealed in this Scripture, and none who has seen Thomas' surprising insight.
Thomas is 'better known' as the unbelieving Thomas we are all familiar with. But I say Thomas was the only disciple who at all believed! Rather than the unbelieving Thomas I should say he should be called the inquisitive Thomas. Where was Thomas the first time Jesus appeared to the disciples in the upper room? I think he was studying the Scriptures while the other disciples --literally-- "crammed in" in the upper room for fear of the Jews. Thomas purposely was absent because he wanted to read the Scriptures to find out about, especially, the phenomenon witnessed by so many people when they Crucified Him and drove nails through Jesus' hands and feet. Vaguely Thomas remembered that he heard something like it read in the synagogue on Sabbath Days from Moses and the Psalms and Prophets. If it was true that that was what happened to this Man Jesus from Nazareth...Nazareth...that also rings a bell... well these things all put together, then Jesus has to be The Son of Man the Scriptures witness of!
So that was why Thomas wasn't with the other disciples eight days back! He was the only "true believer" the only one who dared express his doubts because he had the guts to test his beliefs with Scripture while the others <sat there like wet rained chickens in their fowl coop*> disconsolate and non-plussed. [*Apologies to Karl Barth]
Now what does that say about Jesus' Divine Omniscience revealed in this Scripture? Jesus did not hear Thomas argue, but He challenged Thomas on the exact specifics, that's what!
Brakelight:
I agree that no human sacrifice could have been sufficient to meet our need. But it wasn't just a human sacrifice...If it were, the divine part still lived in God as part of the trinity, hence the confusion. It was the Son of God who died. Not just a human body, but a divine personality Who had taken humanity as His own...become one with us in our humanity while retaining His divine nature. God gave His Son. His Son became man. But a divine person died on Calvary. Not just a human person.
GE:
Exactly. Amen
APAK:
minutes before his death, the mental and inner power of his Father was withdrawn, deliberately. Jesus was as before his baptism, without the ‘full’ power of his Father. It was gone! And it was not needed anymore! The Father was faithful and did his part in the plan of salvation. Jesus had to die as a 100% human being, for his Father to accept him as the perfect sacrifice for mankind. If the Father stayed, the sacrifice would not be perfect and acceptable. There were no shortcuts taken. Jesus dies as any man on a cross, alone.
Jesus cried out with the words of being forsaken by his Father (God), as any human being would do when the most powerful force by his Father was SUDDENLY GONE. He felt abandoned by his Father for that short time. He could not understand why his Father would leave him after 3 years, at a time when he thought he should still be there through to his death. As a human being upon death he felt abandoned, alone and weak in hopelessness. This is the reason why Jesus cried out for his God rather that his Father. Jesus felt distanced and abandoned by his Father and begged then to his formal title, God (YHWH), showing reverence to him and considering himself nothing special, as only a dying human being wanting comfort.
The Father never forsaken (left Jesus’ spirit/heart) Jesus as many think; even Jesus did for a moment out of sheer weakness and helpless ness. And It had nothing to do with some mysterious sin theory; that says God could not ’look’ at sin because he was perfect. It had everything to do with Jesus dying as a human being, losing his Father’s presence and then releasing his spirit into the hands of his Father. It had to be done this way as per the Fathers’ desire for payment of sin for all mankind.
Jun 18, 2018#84 Jesus felt the presence and ’FULL’ power of his Father immediately after his own baptism. He spent 3 years becoming comfortable with his Father’s power inside him as he literally spoke to him to the cross, besides performing all the miracles and such, that the son of man could not do alone. Jesus needed this ‘full’ power of his Father to complete his mission.
GE:
Jesus had to die
1) as The '~100%~' unique and Divine Being He always was and had been, become the 100% unique and Divine-Human Being He always was and had been to, become,
as He had to die,
2) as The ‘~accepted~’, since everlasting to everlasting in the Council of the Full Fellowship of God-Triune, Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
or He would not have been, could not have been and never for as long as '~minutes before his death~' or after, was, '~the perfect sacrifice for mankind~'.
Jun 20, 2018#96 Jesus died the Divine Being He always was and had been, become the Divine-Human Being He always was and had been to, become. Jun 20, 2018#97 Jesus WAS and forever is "The Presence" of "GOD with us". '~The ’FULL’ power~' of GOD the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit '~performed~' in full and perfect union and oneness, in Jesus' conception and birth, circumcision, baptism and temptation, in no lesser degree than during the '~three years He spent ... performing all the miracles and such, that the Son of Man~' alone was predestined and ordained for. He was as '~comfortable with his Father’s power inside him~' as Man as in Eternity before his Incarnation. He never had to do something '~alone~'; the '~full power~' of the Tri-une Godhead started and completed Christ's '~mission~', every moment on the cross included.
APAK:
It seems I do not agree with what you have said, and it's hard to understand your writing in its form anyway. You know having scripture alongside your writing as a reference can help great deal
Stranger:
Many write awkwardly to hide their ignorance of the topic under discussion. It is common on forums.
Enoch111:
What should be clear from Scripture is that Christ is always the God-Man -- fully God and fully sinless Man. And this is also called "the Mystery of Godliness". Which means that human beings cannot fully comprehend how this is possible. But it is true.
Therefore we must not imagine that when Jesus said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?", only His humanity was on display. While Christ confessed His Father as His God in this passage, there are other passages where God the Father plainly calls the Son "God", and also where the Holy Spirit calls Him God. Then we have Thomas calling Christ "God".
Brakelite:
Did God (Jesus's Father) abandon Jesus at the cross? Of course not, not entirely. But Jesus by necessity had to die alone. Just as those who reject His offer of atonement will also have to die alone...rejected by the Father and destined to a second death that without any connection to the only source of life, (John 17:3), will be a death devoid of any life, consciousness, awareness, or knowledge. They shall be as if they had never been.
Enoch111:
Since the penalty for the sin of the whole world was applied at the Cross for those three dark hours, there can be no doubt that in some sense Christ was abandoned during that period in order suffer the full weight of God's wrath against sin.
It would be unwise to attempt to delve into this too much, since only the Godhead knows exactly how Christ felt. Isaiah 53 ans Psalms 22 and 69 give us some glimpses.
Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me. (Ps 69:15)
JIF:
The truth is that the Father had forsaken the Son at the cross during that time of unexplainable darkness when the light of the sun and the light of the full moon was gone, signifying the Son of God taking the sins of the world upon Himself on that cross. Just as sin separated Adam & Eve from God, and yet God was still there, just as reported in secular accounts of the unexplainable darkness at His crucifixion that only the lights from the stars was visible in that moment, so too was God the Father still in our universe and hence, still with us & with the Son in that sense so that He rose Him from the dead three days later in according to His will.
Jun 20, 2018#103 If Jesus spoke only the truth, and no lie, then what He had said on the cross must be true. I do not believe we can give grace to what Jesus has said by saying what He was feeling was wrong when He said it too.
If the Lord our Redeemer said this in regards to other people;
Isaiah 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
Then He did meant it when said on the cross, but His words are the same as the Father's so I can see the Father saying those words in Isaiah 54:7-8. Indeed, His saying was prophesied. It was not a spur of the moment saying spoken from the flesh. See this prophesy about Jesus in Psalm 22.
Willie T:
People don't seem to understand that Jesus was quoting that 22nd Psalm... and that all those listening knew the continuation of His words. It is worth reading it to see that it ends up with the Psalmist knowing God never left him. (Note verse 24)
JIF:
When it comes to God's word, finality has a way of being applied by men at the expense of His other words.
Was Jesus forsaken at that brief moment on the cross. I believe so because He said so. He cannot lie. BUT that does not mean He was speaking a finality to this event on the cross...obviously.
Having been forsaken on the cross by the Father does not mean the Father has left Him forever. Jesus cried, and He heard. He responded in according to His word.
The forsaking was but for a moment as His word does declare, but the Father did not leave Him forever.
GE:
'~He the Father responded in according to His word.~'
That confirms the perfect faithfulness of God the Father as well as Son. But you mean what you say meant faithfulness from either to another to have been abolished even though but for the short duration of a ‘~brief moment~’. A miss is as good as a mile and unfaithfulness as far from faithfulness as the thoughts of God above the thoughts of men.
JIF:
Was Jesus forsaken at that brief moment on the cross. I believe so because He said so.
GE:
Jesus did not '~say so~'. Wrong translations do; but not the Greek, as shown more than once on christianityboard, but as many times simply disdained.
APAK:
It seems I do not agree with what you have said, and it's hard to understand your writing in its form anyway. You know having scripture alongside your writing as a reference can help great deal
GE:
Jesus WAS and forever is --- Revelation 1:4, 8; 4:8 Acts 7:9 et al
"The Presence" --- Exodus 33:14,15 Luke 1;76 et al
"GOD with us" --- Matthew 1:23 Deuteronomy 31:23 et al
The ’FULL’ power of GOD --- Ephesians 1:19,20 Matthew 28:18 Romans 1:4 et al
the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit '~performed~' --- Ephesians 1:19,20 Jeremiah 51:20 Luke 1:20 Psalm 65:1 et al
in full and perfect union and oneness --- John 10:30 Genesis 49:5,6, 10 Psalm 86:10-17 Ephesians 4John 17 Deuteronomy 6:4 Mark 12:29 et al
predestined and ordained for --- Ephesians 1:9-13 Romans 8:29-34 Psalm 81 Acts 17:31 et al
He was as '~comfortable with his Father’s power inside him~' as Man as in Eternity before his Incarnation. Revelation --- Hebrews 7:3 Revelation 1:8 Colossians 1:11-20 et al
He never had to do something '~alone~'; the '~full power~' of the Tri-Une Godhead started and completed Christ's '~mission~', every moment on the cross included and, especially!
Enoch111:
If Jesus is not God, He could not possibly be the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world. While He was born a sinless Man, He is fully God, as we see here (Isa 9:6):
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Thus we read in Acts 20:28: Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
There is only one who shed His blood and is also God. Jesus.
GE:
Amen, brother. God be with you your Saviour
GE:
I agree with you. How is the only way I can agree with you? IN THE FAITH of Jesus Christ WHO "POURED OUT HIS SOUL" -- his LIFE in the fullness thereof being "GOD with us" "the ALL in all fulfilling FULLNESS OF GOD". In his Life is the blood that cleanses from sin, in his SOUL the Water of Life that He washed us in of our sin.
Until you QUOTE Scripture stating Jesus shod - bled, human, animal - blood like the blood the passover lambs bled, every effort you make to get blood out of Jesus' alive veins in Scripture, is AS FUTILE AS ALL THE ATTEMPTS THOSE WHO CRUCIFIED JESUS ATTEMPTED, and should be reason for you to read Hebrews 6 again.
Davy:
the real... reason our Lord Jesus quoted from David in Psalms 22:1 was because our Lord was TEACHING, even while He was on the cross.
For our Lord Jesus to quote that from Psalms 22, a Scripture given through David about 1,000 years prior to Christ's crucifixion, it was pointing out to those present that This is He, The Christ, as God prophesied through David.
“Separate” or “Forsake”
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/forsake-or-separate.26350/
GE:
Psalm 22:1, 20-25
[Exodus 12:3,5 Ezekiel 39:29; 40:1b,4 Exodus 10,12,14 John 12:27,28; 17:1,4,5 Psalm 139:12,15,16]
Mark 15:34,35 [Exodus 12:3:5 Mark 7:32-35]
καὶ τῇ ἐνάτῃ ὥρᾳ ἐβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ
At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Ἐλωῒ Ἐλωῒ λαμὰ σαβαχθανεί; ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani? which is, being interpreted,
Ὁ Θεός μου ὁ Θεός μου, εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με;
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
καί τινες τῶν παρεστηκότων ἀκούσαντες ἔλεγον
And some of them that stood by, when they heard, said,
Ἴδε Ἡλείαν φωνεῖ.
Behold, he calleth Elias.
Matthew 27:46,47
περὶ δὲ τὴν ἐνάτην ὥραν ἀνεβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ λέγων
about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Ἡλεὶ Ἡλεὶ λεμὰ σαβαχθανεί; τοῦτ’ ἔστιν
Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? that is to say,
Θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἵνα τί με ἐγκατέλιπες;
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47 τινὲς δὲ τῶν ἐκεῖ ἑστηκότων ἀκούσαντες
Some of that stood there, when they heard,
ἔλεγον ὅτι Ἡλείαν φωνεῖ οὗτος.
said, This man calleth for Elias.
John 19:28
Μετὰ τοῦτο εἰδὼς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ἤδη πάντα τετέλεσται,
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished,
ἵνα τελειωθῇ ἡ γραφὴ, λέγει Διψῶ.
that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
ἐγκαταλείπω x9
John 15:34 Mark 15:34 Matthew 27:46 εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με –
In the KJV,
“Why hast Thou forsaken Me?” But…
Acts 2:27 “Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell.”
Habrews 13:5 “I will never leave Thee nor forsake Thee”
Therefore:
“To what (task) left Thou Me?”
‘τί’ is “what (thing / task)”. ‘τί’ is not ‘why’.
In the KJV ‘εἰς’ is omitted untranslated, not indicated, implied or inferred. So also the connotation of “in” contained in ἐγκατέλιπές - ἐν+κατέλιπές. While ‘εἰς’ is literally correctly rendered, “to”/“into” – ‘εἰς τί’, “Into / unto what (formidable victory) hast Thou left=sent Me!” For “Thou wilt not leave-alone my soul in hell!” WHERE JESUS GAINED VICTORY! “The Lord is a Man of War, the Lord triumphed greatly.”
Romans 9:28-30 “The Living God will finish .. the Lord will make a short work upon the earth .. The Lord of Sabaoth had left=sent us a Seed .. a Remnant (Christ the Seed) shall be saved”—Jesus’ situation and circumstance as well as prospect at that moment in time on the cross God “left”/“sanctified”/“separated” Him “into” and “for” – ‘εἰς τί’, was everything but ‘forsaken’ in the every day sense of it! The word ἐγκαταλείπω is not the same as καταλείπω used 25 times simply meaning to “leave”
2Corinthians 4:9 Titus 4:10; 4:16 Hebrews 10:25; 13:5
Hebrews 4:1 opposite of 11:27
1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the
knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
Romans 11:4 “I reserved to myself”, manuscript has ‘-λείπ-’; should
be grouped with ἐγκαταλείπω imo in lexicons, not with καταλείπω.
ἐγκαταλείπω (x9) therefore with the inappellable meaning of to “separate” and unchallengeable appropriate usage with that meaning in John 15:34 for εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με, as well as in every of its NT incidences in Mark 15:34 Matthew 27:46 Acts 2:27 Romans 9:29 2Corinthians 4:9 Titus 4:10; 4:16 Hebrews 10:25; 13:5
John 8:9 Ἰησοῦς κατελείφθη μόνος Jesus was left alone doesn’t mean He was forsaken.
Luke 20:31 οὐ κατέλιπον τέκνα they left no children doesn’t mean the children were forsaken.
Romans 11:4 I reserved to myself means God sanctified.
Titus 1:5 for this cause left I thee in Crete means Paul sent Titus to and into Crete.
ἐγκαταλείπω and interpretation
1) Mark and Matthew the Gospel writers; 2) by some of them that stood by who, when they heard, said…; and, 3) by John who interpreted, “After / according to this, Jesus knowing… all things were now accomplished”.
1) Mark and Matthew, compiling their documentation, “interpreted” Jesus’ “calling out” [ἐβόησεν / ἀνεβόησεν] “according to” [μετὰ τοῦτο] the LXX in Psalm 22:1, ‘hinati enkatelipes me’.
2) John heard from ‘sources’; he had “gone back home” by the time Jesus called out these words. When in isolation he later wrote, he perhaps more than anything “interpreted” the sound of ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani’ with “πάντα τετ-έλε-σται”.
3) “Some” in the crowd who spoke Aramaic though, “when they heard Jesus say, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani’, “interpreted”, or thought, Ἡλείαν φωνεῖ οὗτος’ – “This man calleth for Elias”.
Therefore, when translators many centuries later “interpret” with their ‘translation’, it cannot guarantee “forsake” is the correct word to have used. On the contrary, I stand by my criticism of their choice of interpretation, that “forsaken Me” is wrong, and that “separated Me”—even “sanctified Me”—, is truth calling to truth in this divine Moment of Truth in the Life of Christ while the Beloved Son of God “laid down his life” and the “pouring out of his soul” was all “finished” and fulfilled on the cross on Skull Hill.
Enoch111:
Well the truth is that you are certainly not one of the authorities for either Hebrew or Greek, therefore you are quite mistaken. You should have gone back to Psalm 22:1 and determined the correct meaning from there.
לַ֭מְנַצֵּחַ עַל־אַיֶּ֥לֶת הַשַּׁ֗חַר מִזְמֹ֥ור לְדָוִֽד׃ אֵלִ֣י אֵ֭לִי לָמָ֣ה עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי רָחֹ֥וק מִֽ֝ישׁוּעָתִ֗י דִּבְרֵ֥י שַׁאֲגָתִֽי
עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי = azabtani (azavtani) = forsaken (Aramaic sabachthani)
Strong's Concordance
azab: to leave, forsake, loose
Transliteration: azab
Short Definition: forsaken
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to leave, forsake, loose
NASB Translation
abandon (3), abandoned (11), abandons (1), commits (1), deserted (1), failed (1), fails (1), forsake (48), forsaken (56), forsakes (2), forsaking (1), forsook (16), free (5), full* (1), give...vent (1), ignores (1), leave (26), leave them undone (1), leave your behind (1), leaves (2), leaving (1), left (22), left me behind (1), left the behind (1), left behind (1), let it go (1), neglect (2), stopped (1), surely release (1), withdrawn (1).
GE:
Well, it's not I who had to or '~have gone back to~' the Hebrew to consult 21st century IT machines like 'Strongs' to '~determine .. the correct meaning from there~' of Psalm 22:1... '~לַ֭מְנַצֵּחַ עַל־אַיֶּ֥לֶת הַשַּׁ֗חַר מִזְמֹ֥ור לְדָוִֽד׃ אֵלִ֣י אֵ֭לִי לָמָ֣ה עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי רָחֹ֥וק מִֽ֝ישׁוּעָתִ֗י דִּבְרֵ֥י שַׁאֲגָתִֽי
עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי = azabtani (azavtani) = forsaken (Aramaic sabachthani)~'
... its you!
And it is not I who have not '~gone back to~' the Hebrew to consult
21st century IT machines like 'Strongs' to '~determine .. the correct meaning from there~' of Psalm 22:1... it is the Gospel writers who have gone back to the EVENT and its actual circumstances where Jesus spoke the words according to the writers, and "interpreted" them. Not even they were able to "hear" or "interpret" clearly and unambiguously enough to with the same "authority" as you, claim that they have '~determined the correct meaning~' of '~Aramaic sabachthani~' at the hand of the Hebrew '~azabtani~'.
Just as important and telling is it that it is not I who have not '~gone back to~' the Hebrew to consult 21st century IT machines like 'Strongs' to '~determine .. the correct meaning from there~' of Psalm 22:1, but it is the Gospel writers who have gone back to the LXX and the Greek word ἐγκαταλείπω (not καταλείπω). But one would swear if not your 'authorities' were 'there', YOU were there to tell three of the four Gospel writers '~certainly not one of the(m)~' were '~authorities for either Hebrew or Greek and therefore (were) quite mistaken (and) should have gone back to Psalm 22:1 and determined the correct meaning from (the Hebrew) there~'.
GE:
But how about '~going back to~' the actual Psalm in the LXX to which Mark as well as Matthew refer to '~determine .. the correct meaning from there~' of what Jesus meant when he called out, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani" in Mark and Matthew? Mark as well as Matthew refer to Psalm 22 in the LXX because they both use its words, "hinati enkatelipes Me",
"1 My God, My God, why hast Thou sanctified [enkatalipes] Me?"
And the answer comes,
"Thou the Praise of Israel dwellest in a Sanctuary!"
That Sanctuary, was Christ! So intimate a Sanctuary of the Almighty was Jesus his Suffering Servant, that it says,
"I was cast upon Thee from the womb, Thou art My God from my mother's belly ... and Thou hast brought Me down into the dust of death ... Ye that fear the LORD, praise Him ... for He hath NOT despised nor abhorred the affliction of His Afflicted, neither hath He hid his face from Him, He heard!"
In the Sanctuary, Jesus Christ, is the only Place God hears, because The Sanctuary, Jesus Christ, is the only Place of God's Presence, Jesus Christ, "God with us". This was "Why o God, My God, Thou hast sanctified and separated Me."
7angels:
just to confirm we are on the same sheet of music. you are referring to Jesus on the cross and the words He said right? if so then we can look at psalms and it has a chapter(which i am not sure which chapter it is atm) tells us what Jesus was thinking on the cross. i believe Jesus who was sinless and always close to each other was suddenly separated from God by taking on the sins of the world. sin separates us from God which is why God gave His Son for us. from a human perspective if we were always thinking and talking to God and then our communications suddenly got cut off what would you think? even though you know that God never left you, you can still feel an empty space where God used to be. i am nowhere near Jesus in His walk with God but there have been times that i was relating with God and did things that were wrong and i felt God's presence disappear. how much more do you think Jesus felt the presence of God disappear when all the sins landed on Him? God bless
GE:
Note the times and events...
Mark 15:34,35
At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Ἐλωῒ Ἐλωῒ λαμὰ σαβαχθανεί; which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Matthew 27:46,47
about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Ἡλεὶ Ἡλεὶ λεμὰ σαβαχθανεί; that is to say,
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Mark 15:36 Matteus 27:48,49 let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: And he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the spirit.
Lukas 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit; and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
IMMEDIATELY after Jesus had cried, "My God My God, What hast Thou separated Me unto?" He at the same time, died! And HOW did He die? "He said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit; and having said thus, he gave up the ghost", into the hands of his Father! Therefore, How could the Father ever have 'forsaken' his Son!? He never did! But He honoured Him; He "sanctified" Him; God "separated" Christ at and as, the "Right Hand of God", "The Most Holy Place" "under his wings" "in the shadow of the Almighty" and "Cloud of His Presence", the 'Shekinah' of the Most Holy in His Sanctuary and Place of Refuge EVEN IN DEATH.
The SDA declare Jesus’ ‘humanity’ died, but not his ‘divinity’, as by the pen of Mrs E.G. White, “for that cannot be”… the audacity!
7A:
i agree that God never forsook Jesus but that does not mean it did not feel that way to Jesus. God is everywhere whether heaven or hell. so unless the Father withdrew His presence, the Father is always with us. so even though Jesus called out to the Father and could not feel Him does not mean the Father had left.
this honoring took place after Jesus died and went to hell not before. Jesus had to be punished for the sins of the World that He took upon Himself. only what went wrong for the devil was that because Jesus never did anything wrong allowed Jesus to be able to leave hell because Jesus never did any of those crimes He was accused of so Jesus had to be set free. so another way to look at it is that Jesus took our sins so He could go to hell and take back the ownership of the earth so we could be brought back into right standing with God at it was before adam sinned in the garden of eden.
GE:
Your ideas about the hell and the three days are from hell and its eternity and this not the place to obtrude them.
Christ Triumphed in his suffering of dying the death of death Colossians 2:15, and by "the exceeding greatness of God's Power RAISING Him from the dead". Ephesians 1:19,20.
Jesus never '~had to be punished~'; we '~had to be punished~' because we are the ones who sinned; He never sinned, in fact it is written "He knew no sin".
Jesus never '~had to be punished for the sins of the World~', but '~He took upon Himself~' "our sins" because God "so loved the world". "For their sake", said Jesus, He did not contaminate Himself with their sins, but, "for their sake I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." Now the truth is, sin pollutes; it does not sanctify or justify or purify whatsoever.
Therefore, was Jesus not polluted by or with sin whatsoever; he never '~had to be set free~' from sin or from '~punishment for sin~' He never shared in with us. Jesus free and willingly and "for joy that a Man (was) born into the world" became one of us and one with us, except in sin.
Thus Christ bore our iniquities from that He was conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin until He was Raised by the Spirit with Power in the womb of the grave, because He never did anything wrong but everything to the Will of God right, which, leaving death behind, '~allowed Jesus to be able~' to '~be set free~' from the grave.
"The last enemy destroyed is death", therewith sin, death's cause, eventually and finally and once forever BY THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD.
Jul 31, 2018#11 From the start this discussion was about 'forsake or separate' in Mark 15:34 and Matthew 27:47, and in the posts exchanged between you and me, about WHEN Jesus was 'forsaken' or 'separated' / 'sanctified' by the Father -- about IF 'forsaken' at all, or 'WHEN' and "unto what" definitively "separated"?
I believe the latter, That while Jesus was uttering the words, " 'lama sabachtani?' which, being interpreted, is, 'εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με' ", should read in English, "Is this what Thou hast sanctified Me unto?", He died and while dying, commended his soul into his Father' hands WHO THEN AND THERE most intimately was PRESENT for his dying Son.
You believe, No, it FELT for Jesus if his Father had forsaken Him; not that his Father had separated his Son unto Holy Purpose and Status.
How you reconcile your view with what is written though, only you will know.
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/forsake-or-separate.26350/#post-424832
Posts 01 02 16
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/john-19-34.97887/#post-2201832
Martin Marprelate said: ↑
You are entirely wrong. The Greek verb lambano, of which the 3rd person aorist active is elaben, ἔλαβεν. means to 'receive' or to 'take.' Specifically, it is the word used in Rev. 22:17; 'And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take of the water of life.'
In Mark 15:23, our Lord 'did not take' (ouk elaben) the sour wine at that time, for it was an analgesic, and He had to experience the full weight of God's wrath against sin. But in John 19:30, propitiation had already been made and the Lord Jesus specifically requested a drink ('I thirst') in order that Psalm 69:21 might be fulfilled. Therefore he 'took' or 'received'(elaben) the wine vinegar.
As for our Lord's blood not being shed, you'd better hope it was, for, 'Without the shedding of blood there is no remission [of sins]'(Heb. 9:22).
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/john-19-34.97887/#post-2201832
GE:
Do you really still make sacrifices?
Martin Marprelate said: ↑
Heb. 9:24-28 (cf. also 13:8); Romans 12:1.
GE:
Then why have you hoped on Hebrews 9:22, “Without the shedding of blood there is no remission [of sins] … BY THE LAW”?
"The life is in the blood" of animals; the blood is in the Life of the Lamb of God.
“I pour out my soul in Me. … my soul is cast down in Me.” Psalm 42;4,6
“Pour out thine heart like water before the face of the LORD: Lift up thine hands toward Him for the life of thine young children.” Lamentations 2:11. “His sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling to the ground.” Luke 22:44. “A Man of Sorrows and acquainted with grief … He poured out his soul unto death.” Isaiah 53:3,12. “I poured out my soul before the LORD.” 1Samuel 1:15. “Now my soul is poured out upon Me; the days of affliction have taken hold upon Me. My bones are pierced in Me in the night-season.” Job 30:16,17.
“The Church of Christ which He has purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28.
By the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight … BUT NOW the Righteousness OF GOD without the Law is manifested … even the Righteousness OF GOD BY FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE … all being justified freely BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is IN CHRIST JESUS Whom God set forth a Propitiation through FAITH in his blood declaring his Righteousness [his Life] for the remission of sins.” Romans 3:20-25,
Romans 5:8-11,
Ephesians 1:7,
Colossians 1:14,15,
Hebrews 9:12,
Matthew 27:4,
Proverbs 6:17; Isaiah 59:7 John 13:27,
Martin Marprelate said: ↑
Heb. 9:22. 'And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no remission [of sins].'
The writer to the Hebrews tells us that at the time he was writing,the Mosaic Law was 'obsolete and growing old [and] ready to pass away' (Heb. 8:13). I take it that it finally disappeared in AD 70. But Jesus Christ did not come to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfil (Matt. 5:17). He has made the one, perfect, acceptable sacrifice to God in the shedding of His own blood (eg. Matt. 26:28; Acts 20:28; Rom. 3:25; 5:9; Eph. 1:7; 2:13; Col. 1:20; Heb. 10:19; 13:12; 1 Peter 1:19; 1 John 1:7; Rev. 1:5; 5:9) to fulfil all the types and shadows of the Old Covenant..
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/john-19-34.97887/#post-2203452
GE:
"~He has made the one, perfect, acceptable sacrifice to God in the shedding of His own blood~"
How much blood of his was that?
Not a molecule of.
But all his blood "~shedding out~" HIS SOUL.
Martin Marprelate said: ↑
If He didn't bleed when He was shedding His blood, do you think He got wet when He was baptized?
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/john-19-34.97887/#post-2203782
GE:
It is not written once Jesus shed blood. Fact. It was written He shed or poured out his SOUL, "making of HIMSELF, Sacrifice", "pouring out his SOUL -- his LIFE -- an Offering".
He did not bleed when He was shedding out His soul and laid down his LIFE by the SAME POWER He took up his LIFE again.
BOTH things Jesus accomplished by DIVINE POWER without the shedding of blood whatsoever of animal life whether the blood of sheep and goats or human flesh.
Roman Catholicism is the Blood Cult; true believers need no blood but enter into His Rest through Faith of the Son of Man the Son of God Jesus the human Man of Nazareth Holy Acre of First Sheaf Reaped, and Raised from the dead Before the LORD by the Glory of the Father.
Martin Marprelate said: ↑
If He didn't bleed when He was shedding His blood, do you think He got wet when He was baptized?
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/john-19-34.97887/#post-2203782
GE:
Had Jesus bled his flesh saw corruption in dying in the pains of death. "But God loosed the pains of death ... wherefore He saith ... Thou shalt NOT SUFFER thine Holy One to see corruption." He 'fell on sleep. and was laid unto his fathers [Joseph and David] and saw . . ." NO ". . .corruption. Thus He, Whom God raised again (Jesus Christ) saw no corruption : BE IT KNOWN UNTO YOU THEREFORE THAT THROUGH THIS MAN is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins, and that BY HIM all that believe are justified from all things from which YE COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW OF MOSES" which required BLOOD "for without blood and the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sin".
It is nothing to jest about; it is THE MATTER of death or life!
Martin Marprelate said: ↑
It is very hard to take you seriously.
Matt. 26:28. "For this is My blood of the new covenant which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins." It takes us straight back to Hebrews 9:2 doesn't it? No shedding of blood; no forgiveness. Jesus Christ did t come to destroy the law but to fulfil it.
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/john-19-34.97887/#post-2204027
GE:
I don't think it takes us back to Hebrews 9:2. It takes us back to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the foundation of the world.
Do you perceive literally, blood, there? Of course not.
Do you perceive the altar on Calvary, there, "before the foundation of the world"? Of course I should say.
Why is it difficult to understand that in the old dispensation "the life (was) in the blood"? It is not difficult because in the blood of animals there was no real forgiveness of sins.
Then why is it difficult to understand that in the New Dispensation the blood was shed in the LIFE of Jesus and not in the loss of any of his flesh? It is not difficult, because there is real forgiveness of sins in Jesus' LIFE and SOUL He laid down and poured out with the POWER of Divinity He possessed.
If Christ's life were in his blood his sacrifice would have availed only what the sacrifice of animals availed, in reality, nothing. Only through FAITH in the blood of Christ means only through faith in HIM, in his "unblemished", "incorruptible", '"immortality", which He surrendered -- "laid down" because He had POWER to. Jesus' life required not to be taken, but to be "given so that whoever believes in HIM, shall not perish, but receive / have Eternal LIFE -- HIS LIFE.
Martin Marprelate said: ↑
Why can you not believe that the Bible means what it says? Faith in His blood (Rom. 3:25) means faith in His blood. You cannot change the plain meaning of the words to suit your own silly theories. To be sure He had power to lay down His life and to take it up again (John 10:18) but that does not alter the fact that His blood was shed for many for the forgiveness of sins (Matt. 26:28),that He has loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood (Rev.1:5) and that with His blood He purchased men for God (Rev. 5:9).
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/john-19-34.97887/#post-2204355
GE:
Yes, the Bible means what it says ... Faith in His blood (Rom. 3:25) means faith in His blood ---not superstition in any blood. I am no Roman Catholic heathen but a believer in the ONE Sacrifice Jesus Christ made of Himself once for all without animal life, but with his Being--his LIFE-- wherein and wherewith and through which, He shed his BLOOD spiritually discerned THROUGH AND BY AND WITH FAITH ONLY.
Not blood shed by neither faith nor spirit from the bleeding eyes of mother Marys or crucified Jesus' hands and side. Idolatry! Blasphemy!
vooks said: ↑
Gerhard uses hundreds of words to say NOTHING! A hopelessly glib fella.
Let him walk us through sin offerings. WHY were animals killed?
And after killing them, why was their blood poured/sprinkled at the altar?
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/john-19-34.97887/#post-2204355
GE:
And you use the same bygone animal sacrificial system hundreds of times again and again as also do the Jews who never will find forgiveness in the blood you call upon.
Martin Marprelate said: ↑
In the mind of God the Lord Jesus shed His blood for sinners before the foundation of the world. But it happened in real time on the cross at Calvary.
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/john-19-34.97887/#post-2204355
GE:
Like "~in the mind of God~" so with us in faith!
What had happened in real time on the cross at Calvary was Jesus Christ giving his life, surrendering and pouring out his SOUL---his LIFE. Not one drop of blood from his flesh "corrupted", "in death" or in his dying the death of death. Jesus died the death of death having "VANQUISHED death the last enemy" of LIFE, "DESTROYING" it, "death" having been "SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY" : not LIFE being swallowed up by or in death.
THAT was what happened on the cross; not heathen, barbaric, savage blood-spilling, but DIVINE SALVATION OF LIFE.
vooks said: ↑
Why was an animal killed and its blood poured on the altar ? Wasn't its death sufficient?
GE:
You know as well as I do there is no forgiveness of sin in the 'blood'-'death' of sacrifices in whichever way and wherever it may be offered. Faith was required of those who offered blood / life according to the OT Laws as much as of us who BELIEVE in Jesus' blood poured out in his SOUL and LIFE with POWER of his OWN WILL IN THE FACT OF HIS DYING FOR US.
If you believe in spilled blood from the living body of Jesus on the cross, you are obliged to believe in spilling blood from the living body of Jesus now. And be a Roman Catholic. Or believe in non-existing decomposed = "corrupted" blood of Jesus 2000 years ago. And be some superstitious mystic.
vooks said: ↑
Agreed. But besides prayer, one can interrogate the logical conclusion of their theological castles and dismiss them right away. That's how I kicked out Calvinism because it makes God the author of sin.
Remember Gerhard's is not an innocent study of scriptures but a complex theological construct with multiple assumptions and presumptions leading to impossible conclusions.
Three trips by women to bury Jesus properly within a span of 6 hours, and on each trip an angel appears to them and tells them of the resurrection. Do you need special spiritual discernment to see through this nonsense?
Little wonder his theories have zero traction nowhere in Christian theological circles. They don't pass the simplest test of logic let alone faithfulness to the Written Word. John Wenham, he simplified such a complex task and made lots of sense.
vooks said: ↑
All of Gehard's nonsense to prop a Saturday resurrection.
What insanity believes that the women made three trips TO ANOINT Jesus Christ and on EVERY trip angels informed them that Jesus was resurrected?
The OP is projecting his madness on the sacred actors of the Resurrection narrative
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/mark-contains-three-four-visits-to-the-tomb.97996/#post-2204091
GE:
Which one of the two above, Vooks, is it? Which one of the TWO, LIES?!
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/john-19-34.97887/page-2#post-2205200
Dear Gerhard . . .
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Original Post:
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
Jesus' 'blood' means nothing than Jesus' LIFE--Divine-Human LIFE He poured out for the forgiveness of sins.
Or do you maintain Jesus somehow literally is bleeding or was bleeding to forgive sins?
Warnings serve as a reminder to you of the forum's rules, which you are expected to understand and follow.
All the best,
Christian . . .
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/gods-presence-and-jesus-last-suffering.98450/#post-2209196#1
GE:
God's Presence and Jesus' Last Suffering
Mark 15:33b
Καὶ γενομένης ὥρας ἕκτης σκότος ἐγένετο ἐφ’ ὅλην τὴν γῆν ἕως ὥρας ἐνάτης.
And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Matthew 27:45
Ἀπὸ δὲ ἕκτης ὥρας σκότος ἐγένετο ἐπὶ πᾶσαν τὴν γῆν ἕως ὥρας ἐνάτης.
Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Luke 23:44,45 [Gn1:2 Ps91:1 Ex40:3; 10:21,22 Joel2:10,17]
Καὶ ἦν ἤδη ὡσεὶ ὥρα ἕκτη καὶ σκότος ἐγένετο ἐφ’ ὅλην τὴν γῆν ἕως ὥρας ἐνάτης
And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
[Eks26:6-14; 30-36; 30:6; 31:7; 40:19-21,28,34,38]
τοῦ ἡλίου ἐκλιπόντος, ἐσχίσθη δὲ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ μέσον.
And the sun was darkened and the veil of the temple was rent in the middle.
#2 The three hours darkness while Jesus lived the death of death on the cross, had begun.
#3 “The ninth hour" until 'the twelfth hour’(3 p.m. – 6 p.m.)
Psalm 22:1,20-25
Mark 15:34,35
καὶ τῇ ἐνάτῃ ὥρᾳ ἐβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ
At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Elohim, Elohim, lama sabagthanei? dit is, geïnterpreteer:
Ἐλωῒ Ἐλωῒ λαμὰ σαβαχθανεί; ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani? which is, being interpreted,
Ὁ Θεός μου ὁ Θεός μου, εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με;
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
[Jn12:27,28; 17:1,4,5 Ps139:12,15,16,]
35 καί τινες τῶν παρεστηκότων ἀκούσαντες
And some of them that stood by, when they heard, said,
ἔλεγον Ἴδε Ἡλείαν φωνεῖ.
Behold, he calleth Elias.
Matthew 27:46,47
περὶ δὲ τὴν ἐνάτην ὥραν ἀνεβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ λέγων
about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Ἡλεὶ Ἡλεὶ λεμὰ σαβαχθανεί; τοῦτ’ ἔστιν
Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani?that is to say,
Θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἵνα τί με ἐγκατέλιπες;
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47 τινὲς δὲ τῶν ἐκεῖ ἑστηκότων ἀκούσαντες
Some of that stood there, when they heard,
ἔλεγον ὅτι Ἡλείαν φωνεῖ οὗτος.
said, This man calleth for Elias.
#4 The three hours darkness while Jesus lived the death of death on the cross, were over.
#5 John 19:28
Μετὰ τοῦτο εἰδὼς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ἤδη πάντα τετέλεσται,
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished,
ἵνα τελειωθῇ ἡ γραφὴ, λέγει Διψῶ.
that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. [Ps51:7 Lv14:52 Hb9]
John 19:29
σκεῦος ἔκειτο ὄξους μεστόν· σπόγγον οὖν μεστὸν τοῦ ὄξους
Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge
ὑσσώπῳ περιθέντες προσήνεγκαν αὐτοῦ τῷ στόματι.
with vinegar and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
Mark 15:36
δραμὼν δέ τις καὶ γεμίσας σπόγγον ὄξους περιθεὶς καλάμῳ
And the one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and on a reed,
ἐπότιζεν αὐτόν, λέγων Ἄφετε
... gave him to drink, saying, Let alone;
ἴδωμεν εἰ ἔρχεται Ἡλείας καθελεῖν αὐτόν.
let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
Matthew 27:48,49
καὶ εὐθέως δραμὼν εἷς ἐξ αὐτῶν καὶ λαβὼν
And straightway one of them ran, and took
σπόγγον πλήσας τε ὄξους καὶ περιθεὶς καλάμῳ
a spunge ...filled with vinegar ...put around a reed
ἐπότιζεν αὐτόν.49 οἱ δὲ λοιποὶ εἶπαν Ἄφες·
and gave him to drink.49 The rest said, Let be,
Ἴδωμεν εἰ ἔρχεται Ἡλείας σώσων αὐτόν.
let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
#6 The darkness had passed away; it was light again and everybody could immediately see and run again.
#7 John 19:30
ὅτε οὖν ἔλαβεν τὸ ὄξος ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν Τετέλεσται,
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished:
καὶ κλίνας τὴν κεφαλὴν παρέδωκεν τὸ πνεῦμα.
And he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Mark 15:37
ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς ἀφεὶς φωνὴν μεγάλην ἐξέπνευσεν.
And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
Matthew 27:50
ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς πάλιν κράξας φωνῇ μεγάλῃ ἀφῆκεν τὸ πνεῦμα.
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the spirit.
Luke 23:46
καὶ φωνήσας φωνῇ μεγάλῃ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν Πάτερ, εἰς χεῖράς σου
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands
παρατίθεμαι τὸ πνεῦμά μου. τοῦτο δὲ εἰπὼν ἐξέπνευσεν.
I commend my spirit; and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
#8 Jesus died when the darkness passed over and daylight set in again.
#9 Matthew 27:51b
καὶ ἡ γῆ ἐσείσθη, καὶ αἱ πέτραι ἐσχίσθησαν,
And the earth did quake, and the rocks rent.
Matthew 27:52a
καὶ τὰ μνημεῖα ἀνεῴχθησαν
And the graves were opened
[Hebrews 9:5 10:20]
Matthew 27:51a
Καὶ ἰδοὺ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη ἀπ’ ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω εἰς δύο,
And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom
Mark 15:38
Καὶ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη εἰς δύο ἀπ’ ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω.
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
#11 Mark 15:39
Ἰδὼν δὲ ὁ κεντυρίων ὁ παρεστηκὼς ἐξ ἐναντίας αὐτοῦ ὅτι οὕτως
And when the centurion, which stood over against him,saw that
ἐξέπνευσεν, εἶπεν Ἀληθῶς οὗτος ὁ ἄνθρωπος Υἱὸς Θεοῦ ἦν.
He so gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Matthew 27:54
Ὁ δὲ ἑκατόνταρχος καὶ οἱ μετ’ αὐτοῦ τηροῦντες τὸν Ἰησοῦν
...when the centurion and they that were with him watching Jesus,
ἰδόντες τὸν σεισμὸν καὶ τὰ γινόμενα
saw the earthquake and those things that were done,
ἐφοβήθησαν σφόδρα, λέγοντες Ἀληθῶς Θεοῦ Υἱὸς ἦν οὗτος.
they feared greatly, saying, Truly, this was the Son of God.
Luke 23:47
ἰδὼν δὲ ὁ ἑκατοντάρχης τὸ γενόμενον
Now when the centurion saw what was done,
ἐδόξαζεν τὸν Θεὸν λέγων Ὄντως ὁ ἄνθρωπος οὗτος δίκαιος ἦν.
he glorified God, saying: Certainly this was a righteous man.
#12 Matthew 27:46Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over
all the land until the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Matthew wrote, "that is ...". Matthew interpreted or translated the words, 'lema sabachthani', to "mean, why have you forsaken me?"
So what did Matthew mean with the word, --Greek, 'enkatélipes' - 'enkataleípoh'? ‘en’ – in / with; ‘katá’ – in virtue of / in proportion to; ‘leípoh-leípos’ – remainder / henceforth / finally; ‘katáloipos’ – legacy / remnant / remaining (chadal Gn42:33 yathar Is1:9 Ez12:16) “The rest of the blood he shall poor out at the bottom of the altar a sin offering” Lv5:9/10.
I believe the translation with ‘forsake’ was unfortunate and wrong. The word is normally rendered, to ‘leave’. Jesus was given command --was given 'leave'-- to do the will of God, and to empty the cup of his suffering. He actually prayed the Father, “not my will (which however was “to do Thy will, o God”) but Your will be done” in the end or climax of God’s Eternal Plan and Purpose. And Jesus PRAYED the Father that He might glorify the Father, and the Father might glorify Him. Even though it was Jesus' own will, He would have his will be his Father’s will. So now here Jesus is facing the full reality of the crisis of the cross, ‘YOUR will shall be done, my Father; THIS IS my hour, come, glorify Yourself in Me, fully.’ And the only way to glorify Himself for the Father is to “leave” the Son to do his will, perfectly.
I understand more a ‘sanctification’ by the Father of the Son in this Scripture. He put the Son apart for holy purpose and end. “Why” or ‘What have you sanctified Me for, my Father? For that which I prayed you, for: “Not my will, but YOUR will, be done.”
Jesus spoke with his Father; He gave his life into his Father's hands --- how could there have come a separation, one of abandonment, a forsaking of Jesus by the Father? A moment the Father’s LOVE for the Son, was not there for Jesus?! Never! Not at all! In fact, when Jesus had died, at that very moment in time, the veil which covered and enclosed and separated the Shekinah of God's Presence from human gaze, was torn in two from the top to the bottom ... and God's Presence LEFT THE TEMPLE and would on the cross and afterwards in Joseph's grave, go "COVER" the body of Jesus so that "his flesh would see no corruption in death", and He would be "in Thy sight always" / “before thy face always", "always" even in death! “Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy Presence from the pride of man,” Ps31:20 “my times are in thy hand” Ps31:15 “Thou hast brought up my soul FROM THE GRAVE.” Ps30:3 “In the time of trouble He shall hide Me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall He hide me.” Psalm 27:5.
The darkness was the "Shadow"--'shekina'--"Presence of the Almighty" Psalm 91:1 and when Jesus died, daylight set in again. While Jesus still lived, He for no moment was 'forsaken' by his Father ---on the contrary.
Then after Jesus had died and daylight for Him had become darkness, the Presence of the Almighty for Him became Light. Exodus 14:20; 16:10; 19:9. It was the Passover-Suffering of Yahweh. Job 3:6.
GE:
In the Old Testament there was the red heifer, very seldom offered. It was sacrificed above the Kidron so that its blood flowed away from the sanctuary and its ASH was strewn in the direction of Jerusalem. It showed IN ETERNITY NO FORGIVENESS BUT REJECTION.
By His Mercy
Ashes do not have the power to forgive sin. Just show me any Catholic teaching that demonstrates such an absurdity.
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?253735-quot-Ash-Wednesday-quot&p=7609033&posted=1#post7609033
GE:
Neither does blood have the power to forgive sin . . . ANY blood!
Precious
Gerhard, 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
GE:
Jesus' 'blood' means nothing than Jesus' LIFE--Divine-Human LIFE He poured out for the forgiveness of sins. Or do you maintain Jesus somehow literally is bleeding or was bleeding to forgive sins?
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?253735-quot-Ash-Wednesday-quot&p=7609236#post7609236
?:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Precious again. The only reason I could think that he would post something like that is if he is an unbeliever, of a certain ethnic background, who does not even believe what God gave Moses to write. I guess he has never ever read Exodus to Deuteronomy. You know those last three books of the Torah.
ETGO
HE is no longer bleeding or haven't you read the Good News? Jesus rose from the dead and His glorified body has NO BLOOD.. but HE does have bones and flesh. And just to remind you.. THE LIFE IS IN THE BLOOD. Leviticus 17:10 ¶ And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. 12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood. 13 And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust. 14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off. Deuteronomy 12:16; Ac 15:20,25,29
And not one time is John 6 equated with any of the verses pertaining to literally eating blood, except in Roman catholicism and the Rc lites.
GE:
Re: "~His glorified body has NO BLOOD.. but HE does have bones and flesh.~"
Just after having said this, you declared very boldly, "~THE LIFE IS IN THE BLOOD.~"
So I must deduce, ~His glorified body has NO LIFE.. but HE does have bones and flesh~?
And why do you categorise Jesus with the animal sacrifices mentioned or referred to in the Scriptures you supplied?
The life of animal sacrifices is / was "in the blood".
The blood of the Divine Sacrifice, Jesus Christ, was and is still IN HIS RESURRECTED LIFE.
It was the same LIFE Jesus laid down, which He took up again, just as it was the SAME BODY that He made Himself Sacrifice in, which God raised again, from the dead, death and the grave. : THE SAME BODY = THE SAME FLESH AND BONES = THE SAME BLOOD. 100% the same! Not one drop of blood less than Jesus had before His "hour" had "come".
How can you say Jesus' Resurrected Body --the very alive and living PERSON of Himself had / has no blood?
His "Flesh" Jesus Christ Rose with in the body of his flesh, is more than human carbon protein, meat, and calcium, bone, more in fact than iron and oxygen -blood-, but the Son of God Son of man, God-Man the Person Jesus of Nazareth EXALTED King of God's creation. "He who denies Jesus rose from the dead in the flesh : of the TOTAL Being that rose from the dead : is anti-Christ!"
And I may ask the SDAs, like innumerable times before, without any luck of an answer, When exactly, did "cleansing" of the sanctuary occur, through the priest having gone into the most holy place or through the priest having gone out of the most holy place? In other words, was atonement finished inside the mhp, or outside the mhp?
SDAchristian
From the cross, Right ???
AV Lk 24:39-40 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them [his] hands and [his] feet.
For fifty days, one noticed, that your speculation is true ???This is too loaded of a question, to address properly.
Yours in Christ, Michael
GE:
No man, You cannot answer. Jesus never shed a drop of his living blood. Men hammered nails through the palms of his hands because they had to, because God so predestined and prophesied. So holes they drove through holes in his hands BY THE WILL OF GOD. But Jesus shed no blood. And that is what drove everyone so mad they drove nails through his flesh and bones and used every means and instrument of torture at their disposal only to find the BLOOD they so lusted after they could murder the Son of God for it. But God would not let them have what they wanted most, the blood of his Son . . . the blood or the Life of his Son. He would pour out his life soul HIMSELF by the Divine POWER only his, not shared with mortals as far as one drop of blood.
What did the Jews shout for, "Let his BLOOD be upon us and even on our (innocent) children!" Let's waste his blood because they believed Jesus' LIFE like all animals' including anthropos is in the blood. Does not the LAW say it? We want the LAW THE LAW!! We want his LIFE!!
And so do the blood cults of today; they are only what they are, legalists; the Roman Catholics the worst.
SDAchristian
So you know one role of Jesus, and this is where your mind went. I said 'roles'. So you know to call Jesus LORD and Master of your soul, as well as Saviour, in the atonement process ???
AV Hb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].
The sanctuary(both of them) was not a strong understanding of yours.
So what does Jesus do with "his own blood", in the heavenly sanctuary ???
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?255514-quot-Applying-quot-the-Atonement&p=7667085&posted=1#post7667085
GE:
Jesus does not “~do~” anything “~with "his own blood", in the “~heavenly sanctuary~” of SDA fantasy, especially not since He had entered into the most holy place the sanctuary ark-coffin of his grave some two thousand years ago “with his own blood”, “not having seen corruption” the while God watched over his inside and outside spotless body in the sanctuary of his grave from which He with his own blood again CAME OUT, “having been rested up again HIS NAME The Most Holy Place”. Isaiah 57:15.
“When God RAISED Him from the dead” in the very same inside and outside now incorruptible spotless body of his flesh—which included his own blood—, Jesus Christ CAME OUT of his earthly sanctuary of the grave, HIMSELF having been RESURRECTED, being God’s ‘Heavenly Sanctuary’.
Piecrust
I wish I could understand your comment...
GE:
Word for word and sentence by sentence, only what I wrote.
What is wrong? I sincerely wish you may show me if you found something not according to the Gospel of Christ. I do not want to say anything contrary the Gospel and the Scriptures. Never. I have no unique doctrine like the SDA have on the matter of 'the atonement'. I'm a plain Protestant as far as it is concerned.
Piecrust
I wish I could understand your comment...
GE:
. . . have just read Hebrews 9:14,15. Jesus was Himself the Priest, the Sacrifice, the Sanctuary, the Altar, his Life the blood, his Love the Eternal Spirit . . . that "they who are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance"---"your life in God hidden with Christ".
Piecrust
Oh good grief.
GE:
The Grief of Jesus Christ is good; the lusts of men are evil.
Nola369
The gates of the city were shut on Sabbath so it would have been a hindrance to flee on Shabat. Paul had to be let down by a basket over the walls because they were watching for him at the gates in Acts 9. Another proof-speck bites the dust.
GE:
The implied Scriptures do not have anything in common. That's Nola369's fault. Just won't take Scriptures for what they or Jesus said in them.
Resjudicata
Neither. It was finished at the Cross.
GE:
Finished sacrifice yes, Romans 5:11; finished at-one-ment or re-conciliation by the Resurrection. Romans 5:10.
Nola369
Our hearts are cleansed by faith when we believe the gospel. The OT symbols have led many off the path of righteousness. The Law is a giant tar pit waiting to **** you down in unbelief.
I asked the SDA. You will notice they are conspicuous in their absence like countless times before.
Nevertheless, it's true "~Our hearts are cleansed by faith when we believe the gospel.~" I would say when we _believeD_ the Gospel. Peace with God became true by the miracle of grace in our hearts; it is no condition to be saved. Our receiving peace with God is not 'The Atonement' by virtue of which Jesus Christ without us, saved one and all of his redeemed once for all.
Resjudicata
And still, you have laughably-devised a patently-ridiculous "Investigative Judgment" theory that blatantly-contradicts your cult's own doctrine.
The Blood of Jesus COULDN'T have defiled and polluted the Holy Sanctuary by Elijah's time. According to your false prophet, that was what happened on October 22, 1844: Jesus's sinful, defiled and polluted blood began the process of being "cleansed" from its desecrating effect on the Heavenly Sanctuary. That was when the laughably-fraudulent "Investigative Judgment" supposedly commenced.
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?253235-The-Cornfield-quot&p=7667360&posted=1#post7667360
GE:
which insatiable cauldron of heresies is further over-cooked on hell-fire fuelled with Resjudicata cults' atonement sacrifice BLOOD.
Addendum to ‘The In Suffering Triumphant Servant of the LORD’
Joyce Meyer:
https://www.facebook.com/299481673983810/photos/a.299484770650167/379183626013614/?type=3&theater
"Jesus went into the flames of hell and burned there for three days, he dies spiritually, he became born again in Hell, and was the first born-again man in the New Testament."
GE:
And 'christians', made her stinking rich!
?:
The Bible says Jesus only suffered on the CROSS OF CALVARY!
GE:
Blasphemy is become so the vogue it is playing halo-hoop around the temples of Christians' heads.
https://www.facebook.com/randall.wandell.96?fref=pymk
GE:
Psalm 16:10 King James Version (KJV)
"10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."
Acts 2:27 King James Version (KJV)
"27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."
Acts 13:35 King James Version (KJV)
"35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."
1 Peter 3:18-22 King James Version (KJV)
"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good
conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."
In the past false doctrine was "subtly spread by the devil"; nowadays subtle doctrine is spread with deafening noise by the false Church.
JESUS ALIVE AND WILLINGLY suffered and died the death of death in every respect perceivable and not perceivable for sinners.
This has been for me the Doctrine of Christ which all my life exposed itself gradually before me IN THE SCRIPTURES.
"ByGrace" said: ↑
Can you explain to me why it is so important to him..( GE ) to prove that Jesus did not bleed!! I just don't get it.
This is foundational faith to us all..
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/blood-of-jesus.25631/page-6#post-397342#326
GE:
This is why... Thomas Watson:
I think I hear Him say to us,
'Reach out your hands.
Put them into My side.
Feel my bleeding heart.
See if I do not love you.
That's why, because Jesus "POURED OUT HIS SOUL" and therein his body, his blood, his LIFE -- He, Jesus, "POURED OUT HIS SOUL" signifying the Suffering Servant of the LORD, in whom GOD, "THEREIN", in his Crucifixion, Burial, and Resurrection, victoriously, SUFFERED, suffered through "THIS SAME JESUS" BEING GOD: GOD BOTH Anointed Sacrifice and Anointed King: on the cross suffering Death BEING BOTH. THAT IS WHY! Ephesians 2:1-15.
JohnTWayne: « on: Today at 05:50:37 »
God looked at the Christ’s suffering and His wrath for sin was appeased.
GE:
God looked at his Anointed Son's suffering and His wrath for sin was kindled, not <appeased>. Jesus had to bear the full brunt of God's anger and vengeance - He had to die for our sin, pay the ultimate price for our redemption, go all the way through hell to save us, or the wrath of God could have been appeased somewhere in between, and the bitter end would have been unnecessary and not been reached. The devil scourged Christ on the cross with the words, "He trusted on the LORD, that He would deliver him, seeing he delighted in him", he didn't encourage or console the Suffering. It was like hitting the crown of thorns with a stick. Christ bore the full wrath of God, ate the bread of sorrow un-moistened, emptied the cup of gall to the dredge, UNTIL THE WRATH OF THE ALMIGHTY WAS COMPLETED; not softened or deviated or prevented or <appeased>. The only comfort Jesus put his trust in was the LORD, "But be not Thou far from me, o LORD : O My Strength, haste Thee to help Me"... prayed Jesus, "Into Thy hands My Father, I commit my soul."
Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn There is only one death that is the wages of sin, the death Jesus died for me with his Life and for me conquered with his Life.
Soterion #11
Jesus did not go to or through hell to save us.
Jesus came to redeem us from our sins and to destroy the works of the devil, and He did that through His sacrificial death and His resurrection. He never had to endure hell for our salvation; it was never a requirement.
GE:
This sums it all up. Hell, you have no idea what hell is or for Jesus was - IT MEANT HIS LIFE FOR JESUS. Are you blind? God knows... the end of his patience.
Enoch111:
Had the Father not forsaken the Son during those three dark hours, Christ would not have asked in anguish "Why hast thou forsaken me"? Both in the Hebrew and the Aramaic, that word means abandoned or deserted or forsaken.
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/did-god-forsake-jesus.26024/page-8#post-557788#152
GE:
Regardless now the correctness of the translation, Jesus did not <during those three dark hours> ask, "Why hast thou forsaken me?", but...
Mark 15:34,35 "At the ninth hour"
Matthew 27:46,47 "about the ninth hour"
John 19:28 "After this", the whole duration of having suffered dying,
"Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished", and
"cried out, I thirst"
Luke 23:47 "when the centurion SAW what was done", and
"Jesus had cried with a loud voice, and said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit; and having said thus, gave up the ghost", when the darkness was past.
JohnTWayne: « on: Wed May 15, 2019 - 05:50:37 »
At the very core of Christianity is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. The New Testament talks about the body and blood of our Lord being offered on our behalf. Indeed, we memorialize these each Lord’s day as we partake of the Lord’s Supper. But did Jesus offer more than His body and blood for us? Some are now teaching that Jesus died a spiritual death on the cross, and that in fact this is the core of the Gospel. Is this so? Let’s look at their arguments.
First is Jesus’ statement on the cross, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?” The argument is that God forsook Him on the cross in the sense of spiritual death.
This statement is a quotation of Psalm 22:1. This Psalm is a Messianic Psalm describing the suffering on the cross. For example, Psalms 22:14-18 “I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. (15) My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And You lay me in the dust of death. (16) For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. (17) I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; (18) They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.” But did the prophet say Christ would suffer a spiritual death? On the contrary, the Psalm goes on to say, Psalms 22:24 “For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.” God did not hide His face from Christ on the cross. He did not die spiritually.
Why did Jesus say this then? Jesus was the God-man. As a man facing suffering, He reacted the way we often do when we suffer. We ask, “Where is God? Has He Forsaken me?” It was God’s will that put Christ on the cross, and His will that Christ suffer death as a sin offering for us; but it was not an easy thing to do. Jesus felt alone, but as the Psalmist points out, God did not hide His face from Him. Indeed, He looked at the Christ’s suffering and His wrath for sin was appeased.
Second, the advocates of this doctrine point to the various statements in the Bible like 1 Peter 2:24 “and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed,” and argue that since He bore our sins He must have died a spiritual death. They are quick to point out that they do not believe Jesus became a sinner on the cross, but nevertheless, they argue, He was separated from God.
To understand the sense in which Jesus bore our sins we need to go to Isaiah 53:10. “But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.” As this passage teaches, Jesus was a guilt offering on our behalf. God determined that He would save man based on sacrifice. He gave animal sacrifices for sin to foreshadow the coming Christ, who would be THE sacrifice for sin. Jesus bore our sins in this sense. As the sacrifices of the Old Testament had to be without blemish, so our Lord was without blemish and thus not a subject of spiritual death. He shed His blood, and endured a broken body for us that we might be reconciled to God.
I would pause here to point out that God cannot be separated from God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one—a perfect union. It is on the basis of this union that we proclaim we have but one God. To break this union is to break the very thing that makes God one. Jesus was the God-man, but He remained forever one with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Third, the advocates of this position point to an Old Testament passage in Isaiah which speak of the soul of the Savior as an offering for sin. They argue this necessitates the spiritual death of the Savior. Isaiah 53:10-12 “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (12) Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
The Hebrew word for “soul” is nephesh. Nephesh refers to a living being’s life force, whether it be animal or man. Sometimes it is use figurately for the spirit of man, or for the whole of a man or animal, or the breath or life of a man or animal, or even the blood of a living creature.
Commenting on verse 10, Albert Barnes writes, “The word rendered here ‘soul’ (נפשׁ nephesh) means properly breath, spirit, the life, the vital principle Gen_1:20-30; Gen_9:4; Lev_17:11; Deu_12:23. It sometimes denotes the rational soul, regarded as the seat of affections and emotions of various kinds Gen_34:3; Psa_86:4; Isa_15:4; Isa_42:1; Son_1:7; Son_3:1-4. It is here equivalent to himself - when he himself is made a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin.
In line with that, the NASB translates Isaiah 53:10 “But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.”
Jesus offered Himself for our sins—His body, His blood, and His soul was in anguish as verse 11 points out. The whole man was offered for our sins. This does not necessitate a spiritual death on the part of the Lord. As was pointed out earlier Psalms 22 argues against a separation between the Lord and the Father, and the nature of deity argues against it.
As regards verse 12 Albert Barnes says, “Because he hath poured out his soul unto death - His triumphs would be an appropriate reward for his sufferings, his death, and his intercession. The expression ‘he poured out his soul,’ or his life (נפשׁו napeshô; see the notes at Isa_53:10), is derived from the fact that the life was supposed to reside in the blood (see the notes at Rom_3:25); and that when the blood was poured out, the life was supposed to flow forth with it. As a reward for his having thus laid down his life, he would extend his triumphs over the whole world, and subdue the most mighty to himself.”
The NASB translates Isaiah 53:12 “Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.”
This comment and this translation seem to bear out the meaning of the word soul in this case. Jesus poured out Himself, or His blood on our behalf. Spiritual death is not inherent in the meaning of this verse.
Many, but not all, who advocate this position also hold the Preterist view. Since Preterism denies a future resurrection of all, and a future judgment of all, it is in their interest to spiritualize as many of the resurrections in the New Testament as they can, and minimize Christ’s physical resurrection from the dead. I will not go into Preterism at this time, but it seems natural that the two doctrines go together. Some of them are even belittling the blood of Christ. One wrote, “"hahahahaha, tell me Scott how many ounces of Jesus (sic) blood did it take to purchase that church? Did he get any enzymes in change back?....LOLOLOLOL" Steve Baisden
In closing, I would point out that if Jesus had died a spiritual death then I would expect the Hebrew writer to have expounded on that in his treaty on the death of Christ in Hebrews. Indeed, I would expect all the writers of the New Testament to explain that spiritual death, how He was brought back to spiritual life, and the implications of it for Christians. They do not. They emphasize the body and blood of the Lord offered on our behalf. They teach that sin arouses the wrath of God. To appease this wrath God determined that He would accept the physical sacrifice of Jesus. He foreshadowed it with animal sacrifices offered periodically to appease His wrath. But in the fullness of time He appointed the God-man to be a sacrifice for sins by dying a cruel death on a cross. Then Jesus by His own blood entered the heavenly tabernacle and appeased the wrath of God for all who would place their faith in Him (Hebrews 9-11), This is the heart of the gospel and it needs defending in our day and time.
4WD: « Reply #1 on: Wed May 15, 2019 - 05:59:08 »
Did Jesus Die a Spiritual Death on the Cross? NO.
GE: « Reply #19 on: Thu May 16, 2019 - 07:44:11 »
<NO>?!
But you quote - Jesus calling out - Luke 23:46 "Father, into your hands I commit _my_spirit_!" What's that?
That's the same as saying, WITH "having said this he breathed his last breath"-"spirit" = <spiritual>, real, "Life"!
Jesus knew only one life and one death, the Life He was Himself fully, and the death He died Himself fully. This vain talk about Jesus having died some either or death, is a shame and is an insult to his integrity.
GB: « Reply #2 on: Wed May 15, 2019 - 08:08:20 »
Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the
spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Matt. 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Every man's Spirit returns to God who made it, as it is written. Jesus believed this truth and entrusted His Spirit to God as did all those men who trusted in Him. God did not destroy His Spirit, nor did He allow His Body to be destroyed, but changed. It is my understanding that this is because He was sinless. And death is the wage of a man that sins. Therefore death, by the promises of Almighty God, could not hold Jesus who humbled Himself to God and became obedient from the time He realized who He was, unto death.
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Did Jesus die the death of all men? If a person truly believes He came in the Flesh, then the answer would be yes. For 3 days and 3 nights there was no consciousness, no praising God, no obedience, no nothing. He was dead. But as it is written, God raised Him from the dead.
3Resurrections: #5
johntwayne - Excellent. Very well articulated. .. Only one tiny point of disagreement in your last paragraph; that somehow the heavenly temple, which is the “true” temple, needed “cleansing” by the offering of Christ’s physical blood on that mercy seat in heaven. There’s absolutely nothing impure in heaven’s temple that itself requires cleansing, wouldn’t you think?
GE: « Reply #6 on: Wed May 15, 2019 - 10:13:53 »
<One tiny point>? Worse blasphemy there cannot be. Greater arrogance is unthinkable. God have mercy on us
GE: « Reply #17 on: Wed May 15, 2019 - 18:02:13 »
What utter disgusting bloating spiritual obscenity
1WD: #18
Are you talking to yourself again, GE? You seem to do that a lot.
GE:
READ: I was talking to <JTW: #OP>. Your eyes finished? it seems so a lot. But while the shoe fits, 1WD, wear it on the missing foot.
GE:
<NO>?!
But you quote - Jesus calling out - Luke 23:46 "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" What's that?
That's the same as saying, WITH "having said this he breathed his last breath"-"spirit" = <spiritual>, real, "Life"! Jesus knew only one life and one death, the Life He was Himself fully, and the death He died Himself fully. This vain talk about Jesus having died some either or death, is a shame and is an insult to his integrity.
QuaterWheel Drive: #20
I really don't know what you are trying to say here, but it makes no sense to me. He committed his last breath into God's hands ? ? What is that?
GE:
Sure you don't know and sure what I say makes no sense to you.
Because how intelligent can you be, to ask, <What is that? ... He committed his last breath into God's hands>?
What is that? Exactly that "He committed his last breath into God's hands"-, and DIED - WHOLLY HIMSELF, DIED. That is what, 1/8WheelDrive, that's what.
GE:
Then finally ZeroWheelDrive, These words, this here sentence, <He committed his last breath into God's hands> is not what I wrote, BUT YOU, http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/did-jesus-die-a-spiritual-death-on-the-cross/msg1055138579/#msg1055138579#20, YOU LYING FRAUD!
Alan: #24
Whoa! Settle down dude! No one even knows what has got your shorts bunched here.
GE:
Not no one, the 4 wheel drive Amaroks and co, who quote themselves then in the Name of Christ ridicule me as if I authored their blasphemies.
Amarok - a gigantic mythological wolf that stalks at night and devours any person foolish enough to hunt alone.
Alan, I don't hunt alone. It's all I say.
4WD: #27
Wow, Old Gaberhard Nevershon has been on a tirade the last several days mocking, ridiculing, and denigrating everyone who might disagree with his truly weird theological(?) views on this or that. It must be really terrible to be so angry and obnoxious all the time.
GE: #28
The hunted has become the hunter. Beware of his smell the stench of death hanging over the land of spiritual Elfs.
4WD: #29
It's talking to itself again.
GE: #31
Watch them #29, on their backs writhing contorting convulsing in last agony.
Soterion: #43
Well, if Jesus had to suffer eternal and irrevocable damnation, then He would still be damned even now and forever. In such a case, He would not have arisen to be seated as King of Kings and Lord of Lords and High Priest. As it is, Jesus didn't have to be damned to hell at all in order to fulfill His purpose for coming to man as a man. You have zero support from scripture that says such a thing.
GE:
Irrevocable and eternal of itself and for man. You very well know I'm
not speaking of for God. You are petulant and just look where you can stir up trouble.
FOR GOD ALONE IS ABLE to suffer eternal and irrevocable damnation and ARISE to be seated as King of Kings and Lord of Lords and High Priest forever and ever. Where AMEN should follow you have made it impossible.
As pertains <Jesus didn't have to be damned to hell at all in order to fulfill His purpose for coming to man as a man> for its folly to answer would be folly, and Scripture like pearls cast to swine, wasted.
